"Overhaul" please stop.

[EaMett]

This is a normal trend in MMOs. Once you've established yourself as a game for enthusiasts you need to dumb things down over and over to cater to a wider and wider public. Eventually the game loses all substance and everything goes downhill from there.
I'm hopeful that one day, someone will get it right. And to some extent FF14 devs are aware of this and that's why we have content like ultimates that only cater to a tiny player base. They said they would make some really hard crafts in the upcoming patches, lets see how that goes.
But I wonder sometimes if it's enough, the current state of healers is a perfect example of how harmful the process can be.

[Nandrolone]

This is a normal trend in MMOs. Once you've established yourself as a game for enthusiasts you need to dumb things down over and over to cater to a wider and wider public. Eventually the game loses all substance and everything goes downhill from there.
I'm hopeful that one day, someone will get it right. And to some extent FF14 devs are aware of this and that's why we have content like ultimates that only cater to a tiny player base. They said they would make some really hard crafts in the upcoming patches, lets see how that goes.
But I wonder sometimes if it's enough, the current state of healers is a perfect example of how harmful the process can be.

I absolutely agree with OP on every point he has made. Trust me, I know all companies want is money/numbers. That’s all that matters to them. However, maximizing those numbers should also be a priority. You cannot maximize numbers if you’re only catering to one audience. (Casual oriented stuff) Because if you cater to both types of audiences (casual players and serious players) you get the most out of those numbers.

As for crafting. I’ve been a hardcore crafter since ARR, currently have several billion gil, and I can say with certainty, that crafting is not fun anymore to me. I used to enjoy how complex the crafting system was. I actually didn’t use macros, I manually made my gear, it was fun and engaging. Now, that HQ Touches are all 100% guaranteed and there is no variety or skill involved (literally you just spam 1-2 macros) ....I just essentially stopped competitively crafting. And like OP said, dumbing things down to a point, makes it to where things are not rewarding or valuable at all. I don’t even craft anymore because of the unnecessary simplicity, and am waiting until my sub runs out. I’ll try the Expert Recipes in 5.2, but I doubt it’ll be the same at all.

The whole “Expert Recipe” Ranking thing just seems like a “Hey! Like hard crafts? Well guess what! You can do those endlessly.....without any meaningful rewards! No gil! No exclusive rewards! Nothing worth of value! All you get are mounts, and minions....and titles! Isn’t that great!”

It’s like....I understand you don’t want people feeling left out, but at least be reasonable when implementing such features.

[Brightamethyst]

No exclusive rewards! Nothing worth of value! All you get are mounts, and minions....and titles!

Um... what? Aren't mounts, minions, and titles the very definition of exclusive rewards in an MMO?

[Nandrolone]

Um... what? Aren't mounts, minions, and titles the very definition of exclusive rewards in an MMO?

Items that can be sold/traded on the marketboard, etc, are not exclusive. Locking them would be. Also, mounts + minions + titles are the 3 most useless things in the game for a crafter. Something useful for crafters would be: exclusive gear, tools, or just a way to earn gil.

[Vidu]

Items that can be sold/traded on the marketboard, etc, are not exclusive. Locking them would be. Also, mounts + minions + titles are the 3 most useless things in the game for a crafter. Something useful for crafters would be: exclusive gear, tools, or just a way to earn gil.

Titles are exclusive - they very much cant be sold on the marketboard.

Same goes for most mounts, the exception being the ones from PotD and HoH, aswell as certain Eureka-ones. All other mounts have to be earned through achievments or actually clearing the content they're tied to - often some of the more (or most) difficult content, aka raids and Ex-primals (and while both get easier over time, you'd still get quite a while of "prestige" out of those mounts if you earn them at the time they're current).

Minions are a bit more accessible, true - but even there you have some that cant be traded and are locked behind achievments or similar things. I'm not really sure why they stopped doing that tbh.

In regards to rewards for crafters I dont quite agree with your propsals here - especially with "or just a way to earn gil". At least not until they add stuff that actually costs tones of gil. I've been crafting since ARR, I own a mansion, I gave several friends money to buy their houses and by now I've pretty much stopped to make money - I've got several hundred million gil lying around and nothing to spend them on. Why should I bother with a "way to earn gil" if theres nothing I can do with those gil afterwards? I know that some people have this goal to reach the maximum amount of gil possible, but thats something that seems utterly use- and meaningless to me and doesnt feel like a reward for anything.
Gear and tools... well, those to me are only means to an end tbh - getting a better tool would only mean that crafting gets easier so I could craft more so I could earn more useless gil... doesnt seem great to me...
Mounts, minions and titles - or other form of "glamour"-items (maybe some exclusive glamour-gear instead of stuff that actually has stats?) - seem way more rewarding to me than just something that would make crafting easier or add more money, that has no use, to my pocket.

[Nandrolone]

Titles are exclusive - they very much cant be sold on the marketboard.

Same goes for most mounts, the exception being the ones from PotD and HoH, aswell as certain Eureka-ones. All other mounts have to be earned through achievments or actually clearing the content they're tied to - often some of the more (or most) difficult content, aka raids and Ex-primals (and while both get easier over time, you'd still get quite a while of "prestige" out of those mounts if you earn them at the time they're current).

Minions are a bit more accessible, true - but even there you have some that cant be traded and are locked behind achievments or similar things. I'm not really sure why they stopped doing that tbh.

In regards to rewards for crafters I dont quite agree with your propsals here - especially with "or just a way to earn gil". At least not until they add stuff that actually costs tones of gil. I've been crafting since ARR, I own a mansion, I gave several friends money to buy their houses and by now I've pretty much stopped to make money - I've got several hundred million gil lying around and nothing to spend them on. Why should I bother with a "way to earn gil" if theres nothing I can do with those gil afterwards? I know that some people have this goal to reach the maximum amount of gil possible, but thats something that seems utterly use- and meaningless to me and doesnt feel like a reward for anything.
Gear and tools... well, those to me are only means to an end tbh - getting a better tool would only mean that crafting gets easier so I could craft more so I could earn more useless gil... doesnt seem great to me...
Mounts, minions and titles - or other form of "glamour"-items (maybe some exclusive glamour-gear instead of stuff that actually has stats?) - seem way more rewarding to me than just something that would make crafting easier or add more money, that has no use, to my pocket.

I understand what you’re saying, I do. But, I’m going to have to disagree with your entire post there. What you’re suggesting doesn’t promote valuable rewards, or giving players the incentive to work harder to achieve a goal. Also, earning a lot of Gil is a personal achievement. Who are you or I to criticize the way someone chooses to play FFXIV? If someone wants to be casual, let them. If someone wants to play seriously, let them.

I think the issue here is the opposite side of the spectrum (obvious who) tries to silence and constantly criticize the other side. I’m sorry, but I’m gonna have to respectfully disagree with you there.

[Vidu]

I understand what you’re saying, I do. But, I’m going to have to disagree with your entire post there. What you’re suggesting doesn’t promote valuable rewards, or giving players the incentive to work harder to achieve a goal. Also, earning a lot of Gil is a personal achievement. Who are you or I to criticize the way someone chooses to play FFXIV? If someone wants to be casual, let them. If someone wants to play seriously, let them.

I think the issue here is the opposite side of the spectrum (obvious who) tries to silence and constantly criticize the other side. I’m sorry, but I’m gonna have to respectfully disagree with you there.

So... because you're personally not intrested in mounts, minions or titles they're not a worthy goal for anyone to work towards? They cant be a reward - even if they're untradable and have to be earned through an achievment, clearing some difficult content (which could include crafting of some kind, kinda like the first mastercrafter-books we had, if you remember them) - because you dont consider them a worthy goal?

I understand that for some people reaching the gil-limit is a personal goal and all the power to them! All I'm saying is that for some people - or at the very least me - a lot of the (untradable) mounts and titles are much better rewards and goals to work towards than a mountain of useless coin.
Wether or not they're a worthy goal for you - and I'll admit that we could do with some mounts and minions that are locked behind crafting challengens or achievments - is another question. It is however a fact that there are plenty of mounts, all of the titles and some minions that are exclusive, aka that cant be traded on the marketboard. Thats simply not something you can disagree with without ignoring the facts...

[EaMett]

The whole “Expert Recipe” Ranking thing just seems like a “Hey! Like hard crafts? Well guess what! You can do those endlessly.....without any meaningful rewards! No gil! No exclusive rewards! Nothing worth of value! All you get are mounts, and minions....and titles! Isn’t that great!”

I will admit to worrying that expert recipes would just be gated behind stupid stuff like either gear or low hq rates regardless of rotations. I can't see how they could push people into getting original with rotations for these recipes without at least reworking the specialty skills.
I used to get original with rotations and really pull some consistent specialty rotations out of nowhere that meant I could 100% HQ stuff with bad gear and I loved it. When the initial rework hit I lost the ability to do that and had to upgrade my gear to even get me back to where I was. I'm afraid we'll never see that aspect of crafting again.

[Gemina]

Snip.

What would be your suggestion to make crafting more difficult, and not just annoying? I ask this because in the past, the devs make things "difficult" by incorporating the RNG. You spoke of quality touches being 100% now, but a complaint throughout the duration of crafting is how 'drive-a-railroad spike-down-my-throat-instead plz' quality progress was at anything less than 100%. The groans about how anything less than 100% is basically 50%, and I would also have to agree how frustrating it was.

A suggestion I have brought up were crafts that only allow a certain number of steps. However, this is essentially the same as nerfing your CP, and it still suffers from not being able to perpetuate the difficulty. They can incorporate a system that doesn't really allow a player to get to 100% HQ and still complete the craft, but then those aforementioned gripes will return in heavy force.

I honestly don't know. But I admit that innovation is not my forte. I really don't have a problem with the current crafting system though. From a perspective of seeking challenge, I never thought about it being much more than an disassemble/reassemble puzzle. Once you figure it out, then the challenge goes away. A lot of players don't even want that though, and they want the puzzle solved for them instead of using the brain muscles.

I don't think the devs are being unreasonable. In fact, I think they could probably start being a little bit more unreasonable to improve the quality of the game.

[Nandrolone]

What would be your suggestion to make crafting more difficult, and not just annoying? I ask this because in the past, the devs make things "difficult" by incorporating the RNG. You spoke of quality touches being 100% now, but a complaint throughout the duration of crafting is how 'drive-a-railroad spike-down-my-throat-instead plz' quality progress was at anything less than 100%. The groans about how anything less than 100% is basically 50%, and I would also have to agree how frustrating it was.

A suggestion I have brought up were crafts that only allow a certain number of steps. However, this is essentially the same as nerfing your CP, and it still suffers from not being able to perpetuate the difficulty. They can incorporate a system that doesn't really allow a player to get to 100% HQ and still complete the craft, but then those aforementioned gripes will return in heavy force.

I honestly don't know. But I admit that innovation is not my forte. I really don't have a problem with the current crafting system though. From a perspective of seeking challenge, I never thought about it being much more than an disassemble/reassemble puzzle. Once you figure it out, then the challenge goes away. A lot of players don't even want that though, and they want the puzzle solved for them instead of using the brain muscles.

I don't think the devs are being unreasonable. In fact, I think they could probably start being a little bit more unreasonable to improve the quality of the game.

My suggestion would be to make it skill based somehow. My idea though, would be making touch actions only available during certain crafting conditions. For example, you can only use Delicate synthesis or prudent touch during a Good/Excellent. That’ll essentially make macros not optimal and make manual crafting a thing. It’ll also show who really enjoys crafting and who really doesn’t. But that would involve RNG.

Anything in a game that is of value or importance, usually involves RNG or putting in a ton of time and effort. For example, in resident evil 2 remake, to get infinite ammo guns, you need to beat the story on Hard Mode during a very short time frame. Any longer, and you don’t unlock it. Things that are easy in games, or involve little to no RNG, are essentially useless or not worth many people’s time to pursue. I just don’t see any way around that personally.