Can we have changes to the market system?

[Fernandosilveirasc]

No, he isn't. He gave you some solid advice. Your problem is you're so upset about getting undercut that you can't see what he's trying to tell you.

Try reading it again. There's no point engaging in an undercut war over an item that isn't selling. If you find yourself needing to keep adjusting the price to undercut, you're better off removing it from the marketboard and finding something else to sell instead. I wouldn't get rid of the item right away. Wait a few days and see if the market on the item has changed. Sometimes it will be worth relisting.

But you're better off using your time finding the right items to sell than spending your time monitoriing prices for undercuts on something that isn't selling.

Ok, lemme put this in a practical way.

I'm selling a facet crafting gear, which is one of the most sought after items on the market. There is a price undercut bot on ALL facet gears, so no matter if I check the market to undercut the price every 5 minutes, the bot will always undercut it. He also has enough supplies to wage a low price war forever, since bot has no time value. So not only will I never sell an item because of the bot that keeps constantly undercutting price, i'll lose time in trying to do so.

Now tell me, how does any of that advice help here.

And the report option? Joke, there is a thread on the general discussion board, thats going on for almost a year, you should check it out. Basically its zero response, and bot multiplying.

[ForteNightshade]

Ok, lemme put this in a practical way.

I'm selling a facet crafting gear, which is one of the most sought after items on the market. There is a price undercut bot on ALL facet gears, so no matter if I check the market to undercut the price every 5 minutes, the bot will always undercut it. He also has enough supplies to wage a low price war forever, since bot has no time value. So not only will I never sell an item because of the bot that keeps constantly undercutting price, i'll lose time in trying to do so.

Now tell me, how does any of that advice help here.

And the report option? Joke, there is a thread on the general discussion board, thats going on for almost a year, you should check it out. Basically its zero response, and bot multiplying.

To be fair, your suggestion wouldn't work given these players usually have several alts or even alt accounts. So you'd undercut only for them to transfer the item to another character and undercut you again. I suppose one way around that would be restrict trading but even then, they can still out-produce you.

Ultimately, the far better solution is SE actually do something. A big reason we're seeing so many bots nowadays is less and less people are afraid of getting banned. All they need to do is make an example out of several of the known botters (they aren't hard to find) and you'll scare off a lot of the smaller ones. It won't impact RMT but that's a losing battle anyway. They typically don't dominate the market board like actual players botting do.

[Fernandosilveirasc]

I guess you are right.

[Jojoya]

I'm selling a facet crafting gear, which is one of the most sought after items on the market. There is a price undercut bot on ALL facet gears, so no matter if I check the market to undercut the price every 5 minutes, the bot will always undercut it. He also has enough supplies to wage a low price war forever, since bot has no time value. So not only will I never sell an item because of the bot that keeps constantly undercutting price, i'll lose time in trying to do so.

You do understand that there are a lot of players aware of the bot problem and won't buy from a suspected botter?

When you play the undercut game against the bot, you're making yourself look like you're one as well. If the only sellers a buyer has to choose from are apparent bots, they might as well go with the cheaper one.

Set a price. Stick with it. Your item will sell if the demand is there and your price is only slightly above what the undercutter price is.

There are also other things to make to sell which are just as, if not more, profitable. Leveling gear for just about any job level 60+. There are players who will pay more for HQ Ironworks/Onishi/Yamashi gear than the going rate for Facet. The items might sell a little less often but that's thanks to low supply and the high price. Sell that gear at Facet prices and demand could potentially increase. DoW/DoM gear is selling just as well since so many new characters level up much faster than their MSQ progression. They don't have access to dungeons that drop gear their level or the tomestone vendors selling it so they're forced to rely on the marketboard.

Housing items. Not quite so lucrative at the moment with the wards on NA worlds packed solid but there are still the occasional new owners buying furnishings not to mention those who are trying to decorate apartments and FC private rooms, or who want to redecorate what they already have but can't make the furnishings themselves. If Ishgard housing ever opens up, the housing item market will boom.

Is this starting to make more sense now, or do you still want to stubbornly believe that Facet gear is the only thing worth selling?

[Fernandosilveirasc]

You do understand that there are a lot of players aware of the bot problem and won't buy from a suspected botter?

When you play the undercut game against the bot, you're making yourself look like you're one as well. If the only sellers a buyer has to choose from are apparent bots, they might as well go with the cheaper one.

Set a price. Stick with it. Your item will sell if the demand is there and your price is only slightly above what the undercutter price is.

There are also other things to make to sell which are just as, if not more, profitable. Leveling gear for just about any job level 60+. There are players who will pay more for HQ Ironworks/Onishi/Yamashi gear than the going rate for Facet. The items might sell a little less often but that's thanks to low supply and the high price. Sell that gear at Facet prices and demand could potentially increase. DoW/DoM gear is selling just as well since so many new characters level up much faster than their MSQ progression. They don't have access to dungeons that drop gear their level or the tomestone vendors selling it so they're forced to rely on the marketboard.

Housing items. Not quite so lucrative at the moment with the wards on NA worlds packed solid but there are still the occasional new owners buying furnishings not to mention those who are trying to decorate apartments and FC private rooms, or who want to redecorate what they already have but can't make the furnishings themselves. If Ishgard housing ever opens up, the housing item market will boom.

Is this starting to make more sense now, or do you still want to stubbornly believe that Facet gear is the only thing worth selling?

You assume too much. Never said I only worked with facet. My criticism is plainly on the monopolization of the most profitable part of crafting.

[KageTokage]

I've been making more money with less stress by looking for niche glam/furniture items and selling those instead of trying to delve into the bot-infested mainstream markets and trying to fight their undercutting.

It sucks how hard it is to push sales of some things with all the bots around, but it's pretty much just something people are going to forced to work around until SE gets off their butts and starts doing something about them (Which would be a much better solution then trying to curb them with limitations that would likely impact legit players as well).

[Jojoya]

You assume too much. Never said I only worked with facet. My criticism is plainly on the monopolization of the most profitable part of crafting.

Except it's not the most profitable part of crafting, which is part of what I was trying to point out to you. Crafted end game gear has a short window of good profitability, which is the first 2-3 weeks it can be made. After that, demand sinks rapidly and there's too much competition trying to sell to what buyers remain. It's even worse now players can visit cross world to ship for the best prices in their data center.

[Tohe-Spidhire]

All this talk about bots is OT with respect to the OP.

Still, let me point out that, if the game developers consistently choose to not enforce the stated rules about bot usage, then this is defacto admission that bot usage is fair and legal. No point arguing about it; SE is okay with you using bots, regardless of the TOS. The TOS needs to be updated.

At the same time, complaining about bots in the forums is not how you report issues. If you have VIDEO evidence, presented from both your point-of-view, and those that are assisting you to collect evidence, then this would be actionable. Otherwise, all you are doing is raising a flag about something you claim, and then expect SE staff to fully understand the issue.

That aside, if you are attempting to market something into a saturated channel, and then complain about how others are undercutting you (bot, or otherwise) when you yourself are attempting to undercut, then you are a first-order ding dong. I don't care how much you feel that you deserve to have those juicy profits. Go target something that isn't being sold effectively, at a price that is attractive to the market, or get out of the market (and the forums).

[LystAP]

All this talk about bots is OT with respect to the OP.

Still, let me point out that, if the game developers consistently choose to not enforce the stated rules about bot usage, then this is defacto admission that bot usage is fair and legal. No point arguing about it; SE is okay with you using bots, regardless of the TOS. The TOS needs to be updated.

At the same time, complaining about bots in the forums is not how you report issues. If you have VIDEO evidence, presented from both your point-of-view, and those that are assisting you to collect evidence, then this would be actionable. Otherwise, all you are doing is raising a flag about something you claim, and then expect SE staff to fully understand the issue.

That aside, if you are attempting to market something into a saturated channel, and then complain about how others are undercutting you (bot, or otherwise) when you yourself are attempting to undercut, then you are a first-order ding dong. I don't care how much you feel that you deserve to have those juicy profits. Go target something that isn't being sold effectively, at a price that is attractive to the market, or get out of the market (and the forums).

Bots have certain impact on the Marketboard. They do impact it significantly, and should be weeded out when possible.

Undercutting however is inevitable. One person starts, then another counters, then it comes more than just undercutting that is involved - which can be exciting in its own way. It's a optional part of the game, and I treat it as such. Some days I want to make money, some days I want to sell only certain gear, some days I get competitive. Some individuals confuse the Marketboard with the game proper and obsess over it. I'm experiencing some harassment due to it right - some people don't get that people can enjoy the meditative tranquility of gathering - much luck to them, SE takes harrassment cases much more seriously than most others. That said, FFXIV is a MMORPG. It's not a market simulator, expecting others to pick the most optimal outcome isn't wise. In fact, it almost guaranteed to be pointless - the World marketboard access makes it easy for people in the know to go to other cheaper servers, the Companion App lets people change their prices anywhere and at any time from tablet or other mobile device, and there's no cooldown when it comes to price changing. There are little limitations to entry and... Why did I set that price? I like rounded numbers!

I know someone with two accounts that utilizes his literal legion of retainers to dominate markets - he spends his day changing from one character to the next - its' his money. The more retainers you own (aka the more retainers you buy from SE), the more ventures you have, the more selling slots you got, the more money you'll earn. Fake money you use to buy digital stuff you don't actually own (because you have to pay your sub to access it) in a game that'll one day fade away as you move on to the next game.

It's a online game, people have many different motivations and not everyone understands that not everyone's goal is to earn money optimally like some sort of obsessive capitalist.

As a note thought regarding evidence, SE GMs can't actually use player-collected evidence, if I recall, due to the fact that such items can be doctored or function as sources of malware. SE has their own system that they reference when responding to bot reports. It's apparently a pretty good system that goes beyond using logs to determine violations, but I don't know much about it.

[kujoestars]

As much as I'd love to buy only what I need, I also know this will be a darn mess that isn't worth the coding effort. I also think retainers are an exercise in resource management because they can carry as many items as you do so my protip is to avoid hoarding unless you're sure you actually need the stuff. I also vendor off any drop that's already cheaply sold by vendors like bat fangs and wings. Otherwise, my retainers generally sell everything at shocking speed for me, especially high demand mats or HQ weapons/gear.