5.0 WAR is a disappointment

[Khimer]

I actually feel that HW DRK had some good ideas, but it was too unfocused and that SB DRK actually improved on it in every way-- but that's not my point. My point is that whatever sort of complexity WAR might have had, it's absolutely dwarfed by any iteration of DRK. It just wasn't the most complex tank. That's not a bad thing, however, because simplicity can suit personal taste. The whole point is that if you want something more complex, there are other tanks for your purpose. If someone wants something more active, they can play GNB or something. And if we want something simple, we can play WAR.

And that's okay, because that's what options are for.

I get what you're saying, but i don't really agree with it. It's not a good outlook on stuff. Cause usually for other people playstyle is not the only thing they look at when it comes to jobs, they also consider lore, aesthetics, etc. And they can't just go "Welp, they screwed up my favourite job, i guess its time to switch. Whop, they screwed up my new substitution job, i guess i'll switch again" and like that every time when dev teams comes up with smthn "experimental" to put it lightly. When all they needed to do is just listen to those who loved the job they mained and who knew what they were talking about. But that's more of feely type of thing and enjoyment is goddamn subjective. I doubt anyone can win in topics like this, even now there are a lot of DRKs that enjoy Shb iteration and yet there are also a lot of threads on this forum that wish to go back. If they don't change anything for WARs in 5.2 then i and a lot of others will do just as you said and stick to GNB again this tier. Which isn't bad, but still. Crap.

[Khimer]

WAR was never the most complex tank in any expansion. It had its 'complexity peek' during HW due to the stack mechanic and you had to know when you have to spend them, but that's pretty much it.
DRK was the most complex during HW and SB. Not only due to its fast-paced playstyle, but also because of the effects of BW and blood price. From BW you gained mana (and blood) with GCD, oGCD and AAs, and BP was quite the gain if used correctly in dungeons, you could become the 'undying tank'. It was the most difficult, yet most rewarding tank. It had many gimmicks, was way more difficult than the other 2 tanks, and thus was pretty exiting. Unfortunately, DRK was never able to beat WAR in terms of DPS, not in HW nor in SB, and onto this day it's still the lowest in DPS of all tanks (not by a big margin, but still..).

The WAR burst stayed pretty much the same during HW and SB 4.1, it was easy to figure out, and easy to optimize... then SE took that away in 4.2, and since then the skill ceiling curve just went downhill.
Yes, it was awesome at first when you saw all your attacks critDH, and yes, they 'fixed' the 60s dmg buff 'problem', they 'fixed' the burst problem... but for the cost of complexity, flexibility and optimization options. It's so straight forward, it has become mind-numbing. Since ShB they even removed the stance dance, and the gauge crit rate gain, the last bit of complexity and gimmick mechanics left on the job - gone. Now our only concern is how many 'big hits' you get into a 6s window... such intuitive decision-making.

The point of my post was not the competition of which tank was the most complex in the past(which is still pretty subjective topic as i found hw drk much easier to optimize than war), but to point out how war got severely dumbed down in with its current iteration compared to before. And from your post it seems that you mostly agree with it. Updooted for making good points too. At this point the topic has been drained completely, there's nothing more to add.

I am not surprised in the slightest. GNB has gotten all the 'fun' elements from previous tanks - stacks, it's fast-paced, has a strong 20s buff window, a strong dot, highest dps... you could even say it has the most diverse combos. GNB might not be as complex as HW DRK used to be, yet I can imagine that this job is played by old HW DRK mains the most because they resemble each other so much.

And by surprised at GNB i meant it was unexpected that dev team somehow managed to create a good tank from scratch as if they still got it in them, but at the same time continue to screw over existing tanks in playstyle.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

...onto this day [DRK is] still the lowest in DPS of all tanks (not by a big margin, but still..)

No, it isn't, especially not when you look at aDPS.

[Danelo]

And by surprised at GNB i meant it was unexpected that dev team somehow managed to create a good tank from scratch as if they still got it in them, but at the same time continue to screw over existing tanks in playstyle.

I think some are giving SE too much in props here. Aside from the new weapon itself, which is only new to ffxiv, and the continuation mechanic, devs still ripped from other tanks overall concepts for gnb. Fast playstyle from DRK. Higher/est damage zerker idea from WAR. Maybe that’s why some feel like tanks are boring and themeless versions of their former selves.

[ArianeEwah]

to point out how war got severely dumbed down in with its current iteration compared to before. And from your post it seems that you mostly agree with it. Updooted for making good points too.

In that case I completely agree indeed, thanks.

I still want to add to one point - flexibility, with the focus on rotation/gear. Currently, WAR's rotation requires a GCD of 2.38-2.35s. During HW and SB we could go slower. With the changes to Infuriate (got an extra charge) and the overall gauge generation (e.g. no butcher's block) the 'perfect' rotation is fixed, and there is no room for any variation. Should we go slower, we have to spend gauge on Onslaught, thus losing the Infuriate train gain, and desync on IC which results in a major damage loss (correct me if I am wrong here, and we would overcap on Infuriate anyway). And personally, I dislike the clipping/desync of Upheaval.
On GNB I can use different, legit playstyles - slow (2.42), fast (2.4-2.38), really slow (Heavy Hitter - 2.47-2.45) - DRK could also go from fast to slow, and vice versa (if there weren't any BW issues), PLD mostly doesn't care about SkS.
Only Warrior is the least flexible here... also doesn't accept DH melds... despite DRK being a WAR rip-off, it doesn't have those issues.

No, it isn't, especially not when you look at aDPS.

Warrior is above Dark Knight in rDPS - or was, most stopped playing savage months ago. As I said, the difference ain't big - mostly less than 100 DPS.
I agree, WAR loses in aDPS once you get party buffs. Tho, this is no surprise, WAR doesn't benefit from almost half the party buffs available in this game, and unfortunately those are also the most common, too (chain, litany, voice).

[Terkhev]

People who like this "stupid" class playstyle should just play other jobs, after all there are many easy ones, WAR was supposed to be complex for its high dps(when it used to be high), so let people who enjoy complex tanks have its class back. That 4.2 patch was a major hit in enjoyability for actual warrior mains, trust me, because of that they all play gnb now and just silently miss old WAR. Now i just accepted that SE will never bring old warrior back, with that in mind the only thing they can do to fix it is: 1. Increase potency just by a little bit. 2. Change IR to just damage buff so we can have decent melds and decent crit scaling, and also benefit from raid buffs. 3. Returning crit per gauge would make it a little more interesting on the optimization side of the job.

I'd argue about WAR being complex at any point - other than PLD it always was the easiest job IMO. And being someone who loves playing this archetype of class (havy armor and weapon, go in and smash heads), I feel being simple fits it.
I absolutely agree with your points: auto CRT/DH in IR are stupid and removal of crit boost from gauge also wasn't needed. The simplicity that I defend here is having single burst window and not having to align infuriate with it - those were why I hated WAR in early SB.

Personally I think IR and Infuriate shouldn't exist at all (only Berserk) and guage should be generated in much smaller quantities, but also from auto attacks and get a bonus guage from crits. That'd make fights more RNG, but also less predictable and more fun IMO.

[Ultimatecalibur]

I absolutely agree with your points: auto CRT/DH in IR are stupid and removal of crit boost from gauge also wasn't needed.

Making Berserk/Inner Release (and later Chaotic Cyclone/Inner Chaos) auto Direct Crit was done to fix a major flaw with how variable and unstable Warrior damage was. It was completely random on if and how well a WAR could pass a short period DpS check. WAR average damage was completely based on whether or not 3/6 gcds every minute managed to Direct Hit/Crit/Direct Crit while under the effect of Berserk. The average potency per gcd out of Berserk/Inner Release was about 300 potency while Berserk Fell Cleaves varied between 650 and 1170+ potency.

Personally I think IR and Infuriate shouldn't exist at all (only Berserk) and guage should be generated in much smaller quantities, but also from auto attacks and get a bonus guage from crits. That'd make fights more RNG, but also less predictable and more fun IMO.

I doubt groups would find it fun when passing failing a dps check is completely determined by how lucky the WAR was than run.

[Terkhev]

Making Berserk/Inner Release (and later Chaotic Cyclone/Inner Chaos) auto Direct Crit was done to fix a major flaw with how variable and unstable Warrior damage was. It was completely random on if and how well a WAR could pass a short period DpS check. WAR average damage was completely based on whether or not 3/6 gcds every minute managed to Direct Hit/Crit/Direct Crit while under the effect of Berserk. The average potency per gcd out of Berserk/Inner Release was about 300 potency while Berserk Fell Cleaves varied between 650 and 1170+ potency.

That could be fixed by moving some of WAR potency outside of burst window instead. Every other job manages with that randomness.

I doubt groups would find it fun when passing failing a dps check is completely determined by how lucky the WAR was than run.

Change like this would rebalance many other things obviously, including potency per guage point. I also never specified what % would be crit dependant. BRD worked great despite having procs based on crits. No reason for WAR not to. It's all about balancing the RNG part to make very small difference in DPS and instead work as a rotation randomizer - akin to proc based gameplay.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Frankly, leave IR and IC completely alone. They're fine in their current iteration. The only issues I personally have with them are some minor potency ones, as I think WAR should be doing a little bit more DPS than what it does on live. While I'm no math expert and I certainly haven't put in any significant time to see just how severe of an increase something like this would be, I can't imagine it would be too breaking of a change to add, like, 30 potency to IC and 20 or so to FC. 590 and 920 are already weird potency numbers as is.

[Khimer]

Frankly, leave IR and IC completely alone. They're fine in their current iteration.

No, they are not fine, every warrior that knows what they're doing will tell you that guaranteed DCrit is awful. Not only it screws with crit scaling, but also with melding for omnitanks. On top of that most raid buffs are completely useless for warrior and that's just stupid. 4.2 fixed a lot of problems for WAR but it was done in a really bad way. They should just change IR to dmg buff, or make IR only crit and bring back 60s berserk, while also giving warrior minor potency buffs. Like there's no reason for FC to not be 600 pot like Bloodspiller, or its combo finishers 400 pot. That way le new war mains™ can have their unga bunga spam™ and warrior won't be AS awful.