Question pertaining to the afterlife in FFXIV

[Alleo]

They could still be wrong, of course. But I don't think it's just a matter of untested personal beliefs. And if they ARE wrong, then we need to toss some of our own assumptions out the window, such as Nabriales's and Igeyorhym's deaths. Both were taken out by way of the White Auracite plan, which relied on the Ascian's soul dissolving into the Lifestream once they were unable to escape to the void between worlds. If souls DON'T dissolve - then what happened to those two?

I mean Urianger also comes from that city state and is a really smart man and yet even he learned a lot on the first, especially about what Light and Darkness really is. So I doubt that these people truly know it all. Alphinaud is also from that state and he is the one that point out the souls of the pixies and the pixie quest makes it clear that they are influenced by the soul they are reborn with. Heck the one even had memories of the old life.

Also how would you even test that?

I still think that the new lifestream simply takes away the memories of the people. Thus the Ascians that are killed with too much Light (the white auracite only kept them there long enough for us to hit them) either cease to exist completely because that is a way to truly destroy a soul or this is simply a way to force them into the lifestream to be reborn without any memories. And as long as the top three are taken down, no new shard of their souls could rise again.

And we do know that souls do reincarnate. That is now canon in story. (Our soul being probably the 14th one) Also people on the shard had to be reborn quite some times too because the split that shattered the souls happened quite some time ago. Yet here we are with people like first!Gerolt or even Ardbert our soul part. One could argue that we might be special cases but someone like Gerolt? He does not possess the echo yet his shard part also lives. That means they must have reincarnated too because they cant be new souls otherwise they would not be shards of each other. (Which begs the question on how new souls are created and if those that are created are whole)

[LineageRazor]

And we do know that souls do reincarnate. That is now canon in story. (Our soul being probably the 14th one) Also people on the shard had to be reborn quite some times too because the split that shattered the souls happened quite some time ago. Yet here we are with people like first!Gerolt or even Ardbert our soul part. One could argue that we might be special cases but someone like Gerolt? He does not possess the echo yet his shard part also lives. That means they must have reincarnated too because they cant be new souls otherwise they would not be shards of each other. (Which begs the question on how new souls are created and if those that are created are whole)

Bear in mind, that while Grenoldt, Mowen, and the Traveling Merchant at the beginning of ShB MSQ might have a suspiciously strong resemblance to their counterparts on the Source, they have not been confirmed to be split souls, either in-game or out. It is only fan speculation, and should not be presented as fact.

The fact that they have a strong resemblance to their source counterparts is not relevant. In fact, it's a strike AGAINST the theory. We have only one confirmed example of two people who have parts of the same soul, and that's the Warrior of Light and Ardbert - and unless you were VERY specific in how you created your Warrior of Light, the two don't resemble one another at all, and in all likelihood aren't even the same race or gender (or both).

I think there was even an interview where Yoshi P mentioned that certain professions attract a certain type of individual, and so we might see some familiar faces on the First. I don't remember the interview, or if that's exactly what he said, though.

I agree, though, that reincarnation does happen. The WoL's own soul is one example, and all of the Ascians that aren't Lahabrea, Elidibus, or Emet-Selch are also reincarnations of the various Convocation members. There are very likely others. However, I personally believe that not ALL souls reincarnate - I don't think there were enough Ancients left after Zodiark chowed down on three quarters of them to account for the entire population of Hydaelyn. Some souls - most, probably - came about in some other way (probably the "new life" Zodiark created), and THOSE souls, I think, are subject to the whole dissolution and reforming process that the Sharlayans have studied. They don't reincarnate - or if they do, it's only under special circumstances.

[MistakeNot]

I think we do need to consider the difference between "soul" and "mind" (for lack of better words). It seems to me that while the soul may be able to survive and reincarnate, the mind is what gets dissolved in the Life Stream after they die.
So the Ascians we captured with auracite, their souls may have survived, but their minds - containing all their memories and knowledge - would have been destroyed.
Normally the soul and mind would be tightly attached to each other, so Sharlayan scholars and the like may not have noticed that there are two different parts.
The soul, I think, would contain the basic core of personality - so a reincarnated person would be similar but not identical in personality to the previous person having the soul.

[Alleo]

Bear in mind, that while Grenoldt, Mowen, and the Traveling Merchant at the beginning of ShB MSQ might have a suspiciously strong resemblance to their counterparts on the Source, they have not been confirmed to be split souls, either in-game or out. It is only fan speculation, and should not be presented as fact.

Reincarnation is still canon even if its open if those souls are shards or not simply because we know that we once were an Ancient. Of course the rest could just be other souls but how high is the chance that some other kind of souls look exactly like the source counterparts (minus the hair for Gerolt) and are even similar in what they do? (I dont remember Yoshidas interview either but I doubt he would have told us the truth in that anyway) I also would not count us looking differnt from Ardbert as a way to show it being proof. We are special from the rest so we simply could be one of the few where it does not count. Or (and which is what I found more plausible) they had the game restriction and simply could not give us a similar looking Ardbert thanks to all of us looking different. In the end the face that SE uses for the WoL is looking just like Ardbert. Heck people even confused these two in trailers all the time. And even the lore book states the WoL as male.

I really have a hard time seeing how only a few souls are allowed to reincarnate. (But I am not a fan of such a thing anyway) Yes after the calamity not many survived but we have to remember that before this the whole world was full of immortal Ancient beings. Amaurot was just one of the many cities in that world. And a lot of those people died before Zodiark was even summoned so those souls should be there to reincarnate too. (And seeing the scale of just Amaurot we probably already had millions living in that city alone) Why should Zodiark also (seeing how the ancient that summoned him cherished the underworld and their way of life) change the whole system of rebirth?

Anyways most of our discussion cant be based in facts because even the characters in the story are basing stuff only on things they get to know. Yoshida even warned us in one interview to not take what Emet says as the one and only truth since we are missing Hydealyns view on this.

But at least for me the hints ingame just means that the scholars were wrong and that we know learn more and more about the livestream and that maybe all reincarnate.

I think we do need to consider the difference between "soul" and "mind" (for lack of better words). It seems to me that while the soul may be able to survive and reincarnate, the mind is what gets dissolved in the Life Stream after they die.
So the Ascians we captured with auracite, their souls may have survived, but their minds - containing all their memories and knowledge - would have been destroyed.
Normally the soul and mind would be tightly attached to each other, so Sharlayan scholars and the like may not have noticed that there are two different parts.
The soul, I think, would contain the basic core of personality - so a reincarnated person would be similar but not identical in personality to the previous person having the soul.

Interesting points. And the recent patch does point towards something like that with them not using white araucite because they might not be able to transport mind and soul togehter. Which is also a way to show how we are similar to the 14th (and how Ardbert is similar to us) but because of the memories we created our mind might be different thus we are our own person.

[WhiteTerror]

I find this hilarious that the OP is quitting because FFXIV doesn't align well with their religion

[Archangel_Uriel]

I think op isn’t really doing anything wrong with not wanting to offend their personal beliefs, but can we keep this on the question being asked please

[WhiteTerror]

I think op isn’t really doing anything wrong with not wanting to offend their personal beliefs, but can we keep this on the question being asked please

To my knowledge, there is no after-life in the world of ffxiv, there's nothing ambiguous/vague about it. I don't think that the writers should have kept it vague as the OP suggested. If anything, the game world is better off because they don't have to play with fragile people who would drop a game for not having an afterlife in the lore.

[Archangel_Uriel]

To my knowledge, there is no after-life in the world of ffxiv, there's nothing ambiguous/vague about it. I don't think that the writers should have kept it vague as the OP suggested. If anything, the game world is better off because they don't have to play with fragile people who would drop a game for not having an afterlife in the lore.

Can they just have a opinion, calm down and leave them alone?

[Archangel_Uriel]

Anybody actually want to discuss this lore ? I find it very interesting, I’ve seen a lot of things in the game that contradict the scions belief sometimes spoiler: and I’ve seen how people quoted emet on how souls can’t be destroyed

[Lauront]

The Lifestream is basically the same concept of reincarnation you’d find in traditional Buddhism (such as Theravada Buddhism). In Japan, Mahayana Buddhism is more popular in Japan where the concept of the afterlife and soul are much more palatable but sometimes you’ll see more traditional concepts in Japanese media.

In the first place, the idea of a soul is considered an illusion (in these schools). Even in life, you are just an amalgamation of desires propagating itself and you get stuck in a karmic cycle. In traditional Buddhism, Nirvana is actually a true death to escape the cycle of suffering.

But these games aren’t as depressing as that. Japanese Shinto beliefs have taken Buddhist concepts in more naturalistic way. We are essentially reflections of an Omni-Soul which is life itself. So when you die, you return to it.

The one thing that remains in most of these Buddhist concepts is that the sense of Self and Soul are an illusion and we are all one. That’s not so depressing (to me anyway).

I do think ShB may change the cosmology a bit. This seems even more relevant with some of the info from the MSQ. FF7 was a straight rip of Buddhist cosmology, but FFXIV has a lot more to it than that. As we learn more, I think it gets more nuanced and becomes its own thing.

Yeah, I think XIV is drawing significantly more on the ancient Greek conception of the soul and Underworld (it literally refers to what appears to be the Aetherial Sea as this in Hades's short story.)

I think we do need to consider the difference between "soul" and "mind" (for lack of better words). It seems to me that while the soul may be able to survive and reincarnate, the mind is what gets dissolved in the Life Stream after they die.
So the Ascians we captured with auracite, their souls may have survived, but their minds - containing all their memories and knowledge - would have been destroyed.
Normally the soul and mind would be tightly attached to each other, so Sharlayan scholars and the like may not have noticed that there are two different parts.
The soul, I think, would contain the basic core of personality - so a reincarnated person would be similar but not identical in personality to the previous person having the soul.

I'm intrigued whether tempering survives this whole process. What Emet-Selch suggested in the Unsundered's preference for the souls of the original members of the Convocation, due to their faith in Zodiark, does seem to hint at it, but it's not strong enough confirmation. Still, given that the Overlords possess the Echo, which itself appears to hint at a soul that survived the whole dissolution process effected by the Lifestream, there may be some connection to this and tempering. Alternatively, the division may be along the lines LineageRazor mentioned, which also seems reasonable to me - or it may be a mixture of both.

Yoshida even warned us in one interview to not take what Emet says as the one and only truth since we are missing Hydealyns view on this.

Well it's more that we only have part of the story - he also did not allude to Hydaelyn, IIRC, but rather that we only had one side's account of it. If anything, we'd need testimony which is more direct than Hydaelyn's to get a more complete picture, and this is likely what Anamnesis Anyder will offer.