The Reason Zenos.

[monk-dps]

By your logic, there is no difference in power from level 1 to 80. If you disagree, then I would apply that logic to levels 60-70. The game really shouldn't have to spell out for you how strong the WoL is becoming. That should be really obvious.

Maybe I'm not expressing myself clear enough, Or maybe I just miss the difference. All I'm trying to say is why it fell flat for me because other than freeing the areas we went too, I didn't see any change in raw power from the first fight to the last. Was and is it wrong to wish there was more there to show? Like there wasn't even a change in styles from the 3 fights. That's why I looked at it from a gameplay view. What am I missing then? If you say gameplay/levels shouldn't count and from what I remember we didn't learn any lost arts or anything. How am I to explain the difference in the fights? Thats not taking the levels into account.

Like with the primals they showed it and explained it in detail. I just felt like with Zenos they didn't and it honestly felt like the only reason he won was because he's an endgame boss.

[Elladie]

Maybe I'm not expressing myself clear enough, Or maybe I just miss the difference. All I'm trying to say is why it fell flat for me because other than freeing the areas we went too, I didn't see any change in raw power from the first fight to the last. Was and is it wrong to wish there was more there to show? Like there wasn't even a change in styles from the 3 fights. That's why I looked at it from a gameplay view. What am I missing then? If you say gameplay/levels shouldn't count and from what I remember we didn't learn any lost arts or anything. How am I to explain the difference in the fights? Thats not taking the levels into account.

Like with the primals they showed it and explained it in detail. I just felt like with Zenos they didn't and it honestly felt like the only reason he won was because he's an endgame boss.

But you did learn lost arts. You learned your new job abilities and skills from levels 60 to 70. I'm not sure how that isn't learning new stuff and becoming stronger and more powerful.

You don't like Zenos as a character and that's fine. But us growing in strength and ability enough to be able to challenge him is a core aspect of this game and every other FF game. We level up and learn new abilities and stronger abilities

[monk-dps]

But you did learn lost arts. You learned your new job abilities and skills from levels 60 to 70. I'm not sure how that isn't learning new stuff and becoming stronger and more powerful.

You don't like Zenos as a character and that's fine. But us growing in strength and ability enough to be able to challenge him is a core aspect of this game and every other FF game. We level up and learn new abilities and stronger abilities

Thats gameplay and is not related to the mainplot at all. If that's the case, then me saying he only won cause he was level 70 is legit right? And if so that's what I was using, but what I'm being told is that that shouldn't be counted. And if it's not counted, in lore we learned nothing from the first fight to the last one. All the skills and whatnot are simply gameplay elements that are in no way shape related to the plot of what was going on.

[MuseTraveller]

But you did learn lost arts. You learned your new job abilities and skills from levels 60 to 70. I'm not sure how that isn't learning new stuff and becoming stronger and more powerful.

While I get the idea behind that in reality it felt like we just needed better gear to meet Zenos' dps check.

[MariaArvana]

Maybe I'm not expressing myself clear enough, Or maybe I just miss the difference. All I'm trying to say is why it fell flat for me because other than freeing the areas we went too, I didn't see any change in raw power from the first fight to the last.

The first two Zenos fights actually have small details in the fights to show our WoL growing in the strength by the 2nd one at the earliest.

In the first encounter, Zenos is so much stronger than us that concentravity literally blows our character backwards whenever he uses it, even in the non-scripted "knock down to 1HP" moments. In the 2nd encounter, our character has grown stronger to resist the knockback on it, at least until Zenos whips out the Amane-No-habakiri(?) or whatever the sword is called for a power up.

Speaking of, we can just take a look at how much damage we are inflicting on him compared between the two instances. Before we could barely land a hit on him, or any hits we did against him practically didn't phaze him, and this is partially shown in that we only managed to damage his blade and nothing else by the end of the fight. In the 2nd instance he recognizes we've grown stronger and we're actually capable of dealing actual damage to him until he pulls out the sword for a huge powerup, and the gap of power is quickly highlighted as once again we can barely even phaze him. Concentravity also is capable of blowing us away whenever he uses it once again once he unleashes that power, further showing the gap of power increasing. There's also the fact that we actually manage to do more than break his sword, we actually damage his helmet, showing we've grown stronger.

Then at the end of the SB MSQ, we're capable of going toe-to-toe with him, even with him unleashing that exact same power from before, showing just how much our character has shortened the power gap. Despite it capable of blowing us away easily before, we've grown so strong that Concentravity's raw strength is easily shirked once again and we don't get knocked back.

[monk-dps]

The first two Zenos fights actually have small details in the fights to show our WoL growing in the strength by the 2nd one at the earliest.

In the first encounter, Zenos is so much stronger than us that concentravity literally blows our character backwards whenever he uses it, even in the non-scripted "knock down to 1HP" moments. In the 2nd encounter, our character has grown stronger to resist the knockback on it, at least until Zenos whips out the Amane-No-habakiri(?) or whatever the sword is called for a power up.

Speaking of, we can just take a look at how much damage we are inflicting on him compared between the two instances. Before we could barely land a hit on him, or any hits we did against him practically didn't phaze him, and this is partially shown in that we only managed to damage his blade and nothing else by the end of the fight. In the 2nd instance he recognizes we've grown stronger and we're actually capable of dealing actual damage to him until he pulls out the sword for a huge powerup, and the gap of power is quickly highlighted as once again we can barely even phaze him. Concentravity also is capable of blowing us away whenever he uses it once again once he unleashes that power, further showing the gap of power increasing. There's also the fact that we actually manage to do more than break his sword, we actually damage his helmet, showing we've grown stronger.

Then at the end of the SB MSQ, we're capable of going toe-to-toe with him, even with him unleashing that exact same power from before, showing just how much our character has shortened the power gap. Despite it capable of blowing us away easily before, we've grown so strong that Concentravity's raw strength is easily shirked once again and we don't get knocked back.

I understand that, The question is how. What is the difference in lore or what did we do to increase that power? Or is it just I'm thinking way too deep on it. Cause even going back and relooking at the cutsences the only difference I see is our level difference. Which shouldn't be counted right? So what did we do to gain more power in lore to make the difference? Or like I mentioned before.. am I just thinking way to literal and too deep at it? Cause really that's my big beef with it. :c

[MariaArvana]

I understand that, The question is how. What is the difference in lore or what did we do to increase that power? Or is it just I'm thinking way too deep on it. Cause even going back and relooking at the cutsences the only difference I see is our level difference. Which shouldn't be counted right? So what did we do to gain more power in lore to make the difference? Or like I mentioned before.. am I just thinking way to literal and too deep at it? Cause really that's my big beef with it. :c

There's a lot of subtle remarks from npcs throughout the story about how you're growing in power too. Magnai even makes comment about it once when he makes you go spy on Sadu iirc about how your power is wild or something like that. I'd argue that contending with yet more primals (Susano before th 2nd Zenos fight, Susano + lakshmi before the final one), combined with several adventures and battles specifically designed to be about testing a person's power (bardaam's mettle, the nadaam) and fighting strong opponents along the way (Magnai, Sadu, Magitek augmented Grime-whatever, Echo-enhanced Fordola, literally entire legions of garlean troops (right after the nadaam, again at doma, again at vellodonya, whatever that middle base is called in the peaks, Abania, and ala mhigo itself)) hone our skills and strength considerably, since we're basically fighting non-stop from the 2nd Zenos encounter onward to the end of the MSQ.

But that's my opinion. I don't think it's explicitly required to show our WoL learning some lost art or gaining some mcguffin to showcase that days upon days of engaging in never ending battles against deities, soldiers and powerful foes constantly will make us steadily grow more powerful.

[monk-dps]

There's a lot of subtle remarks from npcs throughout the story about how you're growing in power too. Magnai even makes comment about it once when he makes you go spy on Sadu iirc about how your power is wild or something like that. I'd argue that contending with yet more primals (Susano before th 2nd Zenos fight, Susano + lakshmi before the final one), combined with several adventures and battles specifically designed to be about testing a person's power (bardaam's mettle, the nadaam) and fighting strong opponents along the way (Magnai, Sadu, Magitek augmented Grime-whatever, Echo-enhanced Fordola, literally entire legions of garlean troops (right after the nadaam, again at doma, again at vellodonya, whatever that middle base is called in the peaks, Abania, and ala mhigo itself)) hone our skills and strength considerably, since we're basically fighting non-stop from the 2nd Zenos encounter onward to the end of the MSQ.

But that's my opinion. I don't think it's explicitly required to show our WoL learning some lost art or gaining some mcguffin to showcase that days upon days of engaging in never ending battles against deities, soldiers and powerful foes constantly will make us steadily grow more powerful.

I guess thats where my issue lies with it all, cause with other villains they go the extra mile to show or state how or what we do to overcome them. Fordola is a good example as she was getting owned by us all thur the story until she went and got the fake eco. Then she's unbeatable until we get a device to freeze her to get the upper hand. With Zenos it's not stated and because of that it feels like we only lose to him because plot/levels. I wouldn't have this issue if one his level was never shown to us and two we atleast got a remark on something we did that made the difference between the first two and last. But thats just me I guess.

I want to state this has nothing to do with my dislike for Zenos as at first I didn't care for him. It's only after everything and really thinking about it that I just find him unremarkable and boring. There's nothing to him, he's just a badly written Akuma in my opinion.