The Reason Zenos.

[Gemina]

Snippy 1

Again, we lose because it is scripted to be that way. It wouldn't matter if we were level 70 as well; the devs would still find a way to script that fight so we lose. We could even be strong enough to get Zenos down to 0.1%, and then he will bust out some overpowered move, and we lose. They could also design an even level match so Zenos has a ridiculous amount of defense, basically mimicking what happens at the Reach where we can't scratch him, and we lose. I just don't follow why this even matters. You say the fight lacked oof, and I don't follow here either. The WoL was humiliated among the few who survived the onslaught. They are forced to redraw plans to liberate Ala Mhigo, and the Scions totally get the hell out of dodge, and flee the whole continent. Zenos almost orchestrated a no-hitter, but didn't follow through with a clutch kill.

After finally hitting 70 (if we want to use levels), we have three fights against Zenos we can actually lose via duty failure, so it is not scripted. Few will actually wipe to dungeon Zenos, but it is possible; Shinryu and Elidizenos. You're getting what you're asking for but your response is, "they're lackluster." So if there's no pleasing you, or if it extremely difficult to do so, then I dunno. There just seems to be a lot of bias on your part.

snippy 2

How are you not feeling it when you're previous BiS i270 shire gear that you destroyed Alexander with isn't even phasing him? Because he's 10 levels above you? No matter how you want to look at it, he is more powerful than you at this point, and your character getting to the point that they are able to contest with Zenos should be all that you need to know that your character has grown in experience, knowledge, abilities, and also power. It's how it's done in literally every RPG out there.

The lore is filled with clues to how the WoL is getting stronger during SB. The Kojin Blessing; acquiring your Yol mount, and the defeat of Omega is very much canon. If we want to use an ShB example that shows this growth, there is early ShB where the Fauth attempt to make you one of them, and are unaware that you cannot drown. While I also wish it would show our WoL being all awesome powerful in cutscenes, this among many things about your character require you to stretch your own imagination a bit. Besides, when NPCs show their abilities in cutscenes, they don't really display anything greater than what we're capable of with our own skillset. We have some crazy powerful abilities, can traverse between two worlds, and are canonically stated to be a match for Zenos (when not falling asleep in battle anyway).

You also get a display via the echo from Fordola of yourself on the battle field kicking arse using some crazy shizz, so there's that too.

[monk-dps]

D:

I don't feel it because none of the quest has you learning anything to become more powerful. Again you aren't learning any lost arts or new tricks. The only thing that is changing is gear that is gameplay based and your levels, and if we're not counting that then what difference is it when you first fight him to your last fight with him? Again this is baseing this on the plot and not your gameplay stuff being levels or gear. The blessing doesn't make you stronger or hit harder.. it just lets you stay underwater without the need for air. That doesn't play into anything against Zenos. The only other thing is you taking land from him which isn't powering you up either. That's why I never felt this weight Zenos is posed to have over me. Zenos as far as I know is just a level checker with a bit of plot. Maybe I'm missing something but as far as I remember he's only stronger cause of his level, not because of skill or lost arts or anything else. Again we learn nothing in lore to beat him. We just do it, that's why I count the levels as otherwise it makes no sense. :c

[Gemina]

I don't feel it because none of the quest has you learning anything to become more powerful. Again you aren't learning any lost arts or new tricks. The only thing that is changing is gear that is gameplay based and your levels, and if we're not counting that then what difference is it when you first fight him to your last fight with him? Again this is baseing this on the plot and not your gameplay stuff being levels or gear. The blessing doesn't make you stronger or hit harder.. it just lets you stay underwater without the need for air. That doesn't play into anything against Zenos. The only other thing is you taking land from him which isn't powering you up either. That's why I never felt this weight Zenos is posed to have over me. Zenos as far as I know is just a level checker with a bit of plot. Maybe I'm missing something but as far as I remember he's only stronger cause of his level, not because of skill or lost arts or anything else. Again we learn nothing in lore to beat him. We just do it, that's why I count the levels as otherwise it makes no sense. :c

By your logic, there is no difference in power from level 1 to 80. If you disagree, then I would apply that logic to levels 60-70. The game really shouldn't have to spell out for you how strong the WoL is becoming. That should be really obvious.

[monk-dps]

By your logic, there is no difference in power from level 1 to 80. If you disagree, then I would apply that logic to levels 60-70. The game really shouldn't have to spell out for you how strong the WoL is becoming. That should be really obvious.

Maybe I'm not expressing myself clear enough, Or maybe I just miss the difference. All I'm trying to say is why it fell flat for me because other than freeing the areas we went too, I didn't see any change in raw power from the first fight to the last. Was and is it wrong to wish there was more there to show? Like there wasn't even a change in styles from the 3 fights. That's why I looked at it from a gameplay view. What am I missing then? If you say gameplay/levels shouldn't count and from what I remember we didn't learn any lost arts or anything. How am I to explain the difference in the fights? Thats not taking the levels into account.

Like with the primals they showed it and explained it in detail. I just felt like with Zenos they didn't and it honestly felt like the only reason he won was because he's an endgame boss.

[Elladie]

Maybe I'm not expressing myself clear enough, Or maybe I just miss the difference. All I'm trying to say is why it fell flat for me because other than freeing the areas we went too, I didn't see any change in raw power from the first fight to the last. Was and is it wrong to wish there was more there to show? Like there wasn't even a change in styles from the 3 fights. That's why I looked at it from a gameplay view. What am I missing then? If you say gameplay/levels shouldn't count and from what I remember we didn't learn any lost arts or anything. How am I to explain the difference in the fights? Thats not taking the levels into account.

Like with the primals they showed it and explained it in detail. I just felt like with Zenos they didn't and it honestly felt like the only reason he won was because he's an endgame boss.

But you did learn lost arts. You learned your new job abilities and skills from levels 60 to 70. I'm not sure how that isn't learning new stuff and becoming stronger and more powerful.

You don't like Zenos as a character and that's fine. But us growing in strength and ability enough to be able to challenge him is a core aspect of this game and every other FF game. We level up and learn new abilities and stronger abilities

[monk-dps]

But you did learn lost arts. You learned your new job abilities and skills from levels 60 to 70. I'm not sure how that isn't learning new stuff and becoming stronger and more powerful.

You don't like Zenos as a character and that's fine. But us growing in strength and ability enough to be able to challenge him is a core aspect of this game and every other FF game. We level up and learn new abilities and stronger abilities

Thats gameplay and is not related to the mainplot at all. If that's the case, then me saying he only won cause he was level 70 is legit right? And if so that's what I was using, but what I'm being told is that that shouldn't be counted. And if it's not counted, in lore we learned nothing from the first fight to the last one. All the skills and whatnot are simply gameplay elements that are in no way shape related to the plot of what was going on.

[Gemina]

No, he won because the fight was designed in a way that you cannot win. I think you're looking too far into gameplay vs lore. All you need to know is that at the start of SB, the Wol is outmatched by Zenos, but throughout the course of SB the Wol becomes strong enough to stand toe to toe with him, creating the current rivalry between them.

If you want to look at it like the only difference between the start of 4.0 and the end of it is 10 levels and gear, that's fine. But the Wol and now Zenos continue to get more powerful with each patch that comes out.

[Mansion]

(And on that power scaling topic, there's still the fact that while we are very efficient to kick some Primal/Sin Eater, against another kind of enemy we aren't that overpowered. We saw that with Ranjit for instance. In the lore, we sometimes do need some power up phases based on whatever we are conveniently doing at that time so we can take on a mighty enemy).
(But I do think sometimes it's not doing any good to try to link too much lore and gameplay)

[MuseTraveller]

But you did learn lost arts. You learned your new job abilities and skills from levels 60 to 70. I'm not sure how that isn't learning new stuff and becoming stronger and more powerful.

While I get the idea behind that in reality it felt like we just needed better gear to meet Zenos' dps check.

[MariaArvana]

Maybe I'm not expressing myself clear enough, Or maybe I just miss the difference. All I'm trying to say is why it fell flat for me because other than freeing the areas we went too, I didn't see any change in raw power from the first fight to the last.

The first two Zenos fights actually have small details in the fights to show our WoL growing in the strength by the 2nd one at the earliest.

In the first encounter, Zenos is so much stronger than us that concentravity literally blows our character backwards whenever he uses it, even in the non-scripted "knock down to 1HP" moments. In the 2nd encounter, our character has grown stronger to resist the knockback on it, at least until Zenos whips out the Amane-No-habakiri(?) or whatever the sword is called for a power up.

Speaking of, we can just take a look at how much damage we are inflicting on him compared between the two instances. Before we could barely land a hit on him, or any hits we did against him practically didn't phaze him, and this is partially shown in that we only managed to damage his blade and nothing else by the end of the fight. In the 2nd instance he recognizes we've grown stronger and we're actually capable of dealing actual damage to him until he pulls out the sword for a huge powerup, and the gap of power is quickly highlighted as once again we can barely even phaze him. Concentravity also is capable of blowing us away whenever he uses it once again once he unleashes that power, further showing the gap of power increasing. There's also the fact that we actually manage to do more than break his sword, we actually damage his helmet, showing we've grown stronger.

Then at the end of the SB MSQ, we're capable of going toe-to-toe with him, even with him unleashing that exact same power from before, showing just how much our character has shortened the power gap. Despite it capable of blowing us away easily before, we've grown so strong that Concentravity's raw strength is easily shirked once again and we don't get knocked back.