Black Mage Blizzard II (and other minor suggestions)

[OneTrueMiqote]

You keep saying that a BLM (or any caster/ phys. ranged for that matter) should stay at range when there is absolutely nothing to gain from it.
As long as you don't stand in aoes you can stand whereever you want and standing closer to the boss/ mobs is in most cases preferable because many aoes are cone-shaped and easier to dodge if you stand closer plus there's usually a "sweet spot" for most mechanics at max melee range where you can safely place your Leylines and dodge both melee and ranged mechanics while staying within them.

The point of casters and physical ranged being able to attack from range isn't that they should stay at range but instead that they can, if a mechanic calls for it.
Can. If, and only if, a mechanic calls for it. Everything past that is unneccessary and generally leads to more problems than staying closer.

This would be right if it was in a raid setting. But in dungeons during trash mob pulls (which is the most relevant to this discussion), most aoes will not reach you if you are farther away. The ones that do reach are rare and are an exception. Your odds of needing to dodge an aoe are MUCH higher if you stand in the max melee distance as you suggested.

[Iscah]

This would be right if it was in a raid setting. But in dungeons during trash mob pulls (which is the most relevant to this discussion), most aoes will not reach you if you are farther away. The ones that do reach are rare and are an exception. Your odds of needing to dodge an aoe are MUCH higher if you stand in the max melee distance as you suggested.

That's very dependent on the individual dungeon though. Killing fireflies in Sastasha is barely a risk, but good luck doing that with Fire II before your party kills the individual one you chose to target. Blizzard II is weaker but goes off reliably; Fire II is stronger but does zero damage if you lose your target.

[KayliRose]

The Keypoint of my argument is that Blizzard 2 puts you far too close to the action. The "sweet spot" where you can be close isn't close enough for Blizzard 2 to be effective, yet being too close can put you too close to close-range AoEs.
For those who say most low-level dungeons don't have many AoEs, I'll recap because a lot of people forget about the lower dungeons.

Sastasha, Tam Tara, and Copperbell don't have many Circle AoEs, mostly Cones and Lines.

By the time you hit Halatali however you start seeing more circles from the likes of bombs, which are pretty well littered around the place.

Toto-Rak and Haukke Manor are littered with Circle AoEs. The Ochus (minions and bosses), are AoE poisons that you don't wanna be within 5 yalms of, but are littered through the first half of the dungeon, which is to say, all the way until the 2nd Ochu Boss is dead. Haukke Manor on the other hand gets its AoEs in the form of Succubi, the Maid Servants that wander the halls as well as all 3 bosses have close range AoEs you don't wanna be up against, being further than the distance that B2 would ever be needed or effective. You might be able to sneak some B2s in when the Maid servants aren't around, but at that point I'd just stick to the standard "Fire1/2 spam, Blizz 1 til mana tops, repeat" method since ya know.. It's easier and safer.

Brayflox starts to see a fall off of Circle AoEs until you get to the swampy area with the Surf Efts and Wyrmhounds, which have their own AoE circles, and the Hellbender. Otherwise most of the AoEs in the dungeon are cone/line and the boss has targeted AoEs which you can't really help.

I can see no use for B2 in these dungeons though, where it wouldn't be better to just use Fire 2 until your mana is gone, then B1 a couple times for mana pip, then back to Fire 1 or Fire 2 Spamming. By the time you reach Sunken Temple of Qarn, the next dungeon after Brayflox, you have your Freeze, which is all-round better than B2 would ever be in damage, range, and utility. The only time I could feasibly give B2 a purpose in any of these dungeons would be the first and second boss fights of Copperbell with the monster hordes, more so on the 2nd than the first since the Ichorous Ire doesn't do do anything, and it's a quick way to dispatch the low-healthed little slimes, but even then a Fire 2 would be more effective, and you should be mostly full mana for that fight anyway since most of the fight is ya know.. Tank?

Preaching positioning though is not the issue here. Positioning is key for most Jobs, always. It's just there's never really a time to want to use B2 since you have to be too close to the action to need it. If it had a better Radius like say 15 yalms akin to White Mage's Assize, or even a cone AoE would be better than a centered 5 yalm AoE, then it may be used more often by many. I just think it needs to be tweaked so that it doesn't stay in the chasm of disuse.

That's very dependent on the individual dungeon though. Killing fireflies in Sastasha is barely a risk, but good luck doing that with Fire II before your party kills the individual one you chose to target. Blizzard II is weaker but goes off reliably; Fire II is stronger but does zero damage if you lose your target.

Most of the time in this situation I don't even use Fire 2, I use Scathe since it's Insta cast.. and still does more than B2. When in this area though most of the time a BLM will kill the clams first, and only attack Seekers if there are any left. Usually not since the rest of the party, like you said, already killed them

Edit: Also I should point out that Blizzard 2's Cast-time is the exact same as majority of BLMs other spells. 2.5s baseline. It is not "Faster" to use Blizz 2 over any other spell standard spell. That being said, Blizzard 2 desperately needs something to make it useful again or needs to be removed/replaced by Freeze. Because I wanna ask how many of you that are preaching me about positioning, actually use B2 as part of skill rotations?

[Archwizard]

That being said, Blizzard 2 desperately needs something to make it useful again or needs to be removed/replaced by Freeze. Because I wanna ask how many of you that are preaching me about positioning, actually use B2 as part of skill rotations?

Oh, I guarantee most of them don't even have it in a convenient spot on their bar until they do Leveling roulette.

Meanwhile, I agree with the OP: B2 is redundant in the same kit as Freeze, and too weak to justify using at high levels during the brief window of the UI phase. Either B2 should upgrade into Freeze at the level the latter is obtained (same with F2 into Flare, since we drop the former long beforehand), or B2 should gain some other utility like a stun or slow to give it a niche use in AoE scenarios.
Personally I'm a fan of the former, since it would cut down on some button bloat -- and as I said, it eliminates needing to pull it out of the spellbook during roulettes.

Granting, I'm also a maniac who advocates dropping Scathe to make B1 the new instant at 15, halving the cast time of F1 in the 50-60 range for the purposes of weaving and AF timing, merging Enochian/F4/B4 buttons as well as LL/BtL, and letting Aspect Mastery affect Flare so we won't F3 during AoE.

[Ardox]

Oh, I guarantee most of them don't even have it in a convenient spot on their bar until they do Leveling roulette.

Meanwhile, I agree with the OP: B2 is redundant in the same kit as Freeze, and too weak to justify using at high levels during the brief window of the UI phase. Either B2 should upgrade into Freeze at the level the latter is obtained (same with F2 into Flare, since we drop the former long beforehand), or B2 should gain some other utility like a stun or slow to give it a niche use in AoE scenarios.
Personally I'm a fan of the former, since it would cut down on some button bloat -- and as I said, it eliminates needing to pull it out of the spellbook during roulettes.

Granting, I'm also a maniac who advocates dropping Scathe to make B1 the new instant at 15, halving the cast time of F1 in the 50-60 range for the purposes of weaving and AF timing, merging Enochian/F4/B4 buttons as well as LL/BtL, and letting Aspect Mastery affect Flare so we won't F3 during AoE.

Upgrade F2 into Flare at level 50 and then have no AoE rotation (or rather a very clippy/clunky one) between level 50 and 68?

[KayliRose]

Granting, I'm also a maniac who advocates dropping Scathe to make B1 the new instant at 15, halving the cast time of F1 in the 50-60 range for the purposes of weaving and AF timing, merging Enochian/F4/B4 buttons as well as LL/BtL, and letting Aspect Mastery affect Flare so we won't F3 during AoE.

See the issue is that Fire 2 can still be useful aside from Flare, unlike the Blizz 2/Freeze relationship. Fire 2 can be spammed with Umbral hearts in later levels for decent damage, and finish the combo off with Flare as a burst attack, follow up with Trans> Freeze then your back to full mana in like a second. B4 for umbral, F3 for fire switch, then back to your fire attacks. Flare and Fire 2 don't have the same issue as Freeze and blizz 2 though. Also nuuuu I love scathe, it's an off-combo insta-cast finisher. XD That being said I only use scathe to finish off low-health targets where I would be too slow to cast something on it. Usually works well.

[Archwizard]

Upgrade F2 into Flare at level 50 and then have no AoE rotation (or rather a very clippy/clunky one) between level 50 and 68?

I'm glad you asked!

So thanks to the buff Freeze received this expansion and its sub-GCD cast time, under current circumstances, at 35+ the math is that you get more value out of just spamming Freeze (and Thundercloud) for your entire AoE rotation than you get from using the standard "spam F2 until you run low on MP then swap to ice phase to recover", partly due to the damage lost on F3. At best you get more situational burst out of F2, but at the cost of PPS over the entire encounter.

So from 35-49, you spam Freeze. You get Flare at 50, but F2 has not become more appealing or gained any value so it's best to just skip it still (just going Freeze, F3, Flare, Transpose ad nauseum until a TC proc or Manafont gives an extra Flare -- bearing in mind Flare scales its cost so you can swap elements after 1 MP tick in UI this way, which equates to more burst that F2s would only dilute), and you shouldn't be stopping to B4 during your AoE, making an Umbral Heart calculation moot until Freeze gains the ability at 68 (at which point you get a second Flare, so F2 is still moot) and Aspect Mastery at 72 (at which point you skip Transpose, making it only marginally less "clunky").

So in short: F2 is equally dead weight after 35, so there's zero reason not to swap it out later on.
The fact that it maintains symmetry with the suggestion for B2 to upgrade to Freeze is a happy accident.

[PyurBlue]

Oh, I guarantee most of them don't even have it in a convenient spot on their bar until they do Leveling roulette.

I have it on my bars permanently, I try to include every skill.

B2 should gain some other utility like a stun or slow to give it a niche use in AoE scenarios.

B2 being castable with a target already gives it a niche, especially since Freeze lost this ability. Now it's quite niche I admit, but it's there. Freeze was much much more consistent than Flare in killing the O5S mobs for instance. At low HP they'd tend to die before Flare would cast. You could also precast Freeze for damage on spawn, though I never really got the timing for that down in that case.

The biggest problem right now is that the damage is next to nothing, it just needs to be boosted. It could even match Freeze as it would have the drawback of not being ranged and not providing hearts.

You get Flare at 50, but F2 has not become more appealing or gained any value so it's best to just skip it still (just going Freeze, F3, Flare, Transpose ad nauseum until a TC proc or Manafont gives an extra Flare -- bearing in mind Flare scales its cost so you can swap elements after 1 MP tick in UI this way, which equates to more burst that F2s would only dilute), and you shouldn't be stopping to B4 during your AoE, making an Umbral Heart calculation moot until Freeze gains the ability at 68 (at which point you get a second Flare, so F2 is still moot) and Aspect Mastery at 72 (at which point you skip Transpose, making it only marginally less "clunky").

On paper Flare only is more damage, but such a rotation is probably going to suffer from MP tick issues more. I haven't worked it out myself, but you're going to be pressing transpose more often at intermediate levels. It feels awful when you can't cast anything for 3 seconds afterward. It might not be optimal, but I still use F2 to space out transpose casts and allow Thunder to proc more per use of transpose (to cover MP ticks). If it is a DPS loss it's not a huge one.

[Ursa_Vonfiebryd]

There has been so many threads about this already. Please just leave the thing I can impress sprouts with alone. -It does have questionable function in low level duties.

[Archwizard]

I have it on my bars permanently, I try to include every skill.

Congratulations, you are not "most" people.

At any rate, the qualifier was "a convenient spot" on the bar. I assume it's probably closer to your mount button than the spells and abilities you use in your main rotation, largely there just to say it is. That's not the same as actually using it and you know it.

B2 being castable with a target already gives it a niche, especially since Freeze lost this ability.

I assume you meant "without" a target, and will proceed accordingly.

As you said, that's incredibly niche. Being able to precast an ability for mobs spawning gives you, at most, the damage of one extra cast -- and more often than not, the need to get within melee range will end up biting you more than waiting for targets.

It could even match Freeze as it would have the drawback of not being ranged and not providing hearts.

... then what would the point of it be. If they have the same damage, there's still no reason to use B2 over Freeze, especially if you can cast the latter at-range which is a far greater convenience than precasting.

On paper Flare only is more damage, but such a rotation is probably going to suffer from MP tick issues more.

And so long as you're using Flare, you would suffer those exact same MP tick issues until Aspect Mastery anyway. The damage of Flare is too good to pass up just because the rotation is "clunky."
The problem there is the invisible timer on the MP tick itself, honestly.

At any rate, what are you arguing against here? F2 doesn't solve that problem unless you skip Flare completely, and at that point you're still better off just using Freeze.

It might not be optimal, but I still use F2 to space out transpose casts and allow Thunder to proc more per use of transpose (to cover MP ticks). If it is a DPS loss it's not a huge one.

And I don't think the developers are catering the job to suboptimal play.

But really, you're saying B2 should be preserved for the "optimal" value of being able to precast it, while also saying F2 should stay so you can use it suboptimally? Pick a side, we don't need the button bloat caused by either.

Please just leave the thing I can impress sprouts with alone.

Just use Ley Lines instead.