Concerning recent developments of third party addons, and SE's DADT stance

[NessaWyvern]

Yeah, I think that the showing of hidden telegrams, and showing them in advance, which the ordinary player who isn't using add ons would never see, is cheating. It gives an unfair advantage.

[Inputnamehere]

Why is it so hard to admit that certain programs equal to cheating?

Is auto waymark placement much different from aimbots in shooter games?

Is it even fine to predict incoming mechanics several seconds before they actually happen in the game? Yeah, human raid leaders can also do these, I'm sure. Heh.

When SE does not provide an opinion on this matter, it just escalates until it cannot be left alone, as SE has been doing until now.

Auto skill rotation performing and auto movement incoming, fellas. This won't be a simple joke at this rate.

[Risvertasashi]

Due to that, I fully expect the player using this to be banned, as is their current MO. What I'm concerned about is the fix Square will attempt. Anyone who raids with a DPS parsing utility should also be concerned. It's removal would hurt FFXIV raiding harder then Gordias did, I'd expect, because having those metrics to go off of is a big part of the engagement for FFXIV's raiding scene.

This is also my worry: that this addon or addons like it that might come after make might SE feel compelled to do something instead of the usual practice of turning a blind eye. And that something might break the more mundane, but important to raiding addons.

Maybe I'm worrying too much.

[KageTokage]

People have been abusing add-ons to make themselves privy to information they have no business knowing about for a long while (Such as the precise location of S rank hunt marks without having to be within eyeshot of them), so it doesn't surprise me they've taken it to the logical extreme where they're able to know about the exact placement of intentionally vague mechanics like Fate Calibration in TEA.

Unfortunately, they can't really stop this without locking out third party programs in general. The only way they could actually enforce this is via Twitch clips that show the violating add-ons being used unless they decided to take drastic measures and start installing security programs.

Hey. Maybe you can help me out here. I was wondering what would be the motivation and thought process requirement to enter a thread and then just attack the OP. Typically, if someone doesn't have anything meaningful to say, they don't respond at all. Or, if they disagree, they express this disagreement in a general dialog that tries to address and understand the OP's view. But you chose the "abuse the op" path. Any insights? It's kinda a classic. "Attack the character, not the argument" fallacy is a true staple..

I wouldn't take anything that person says too seriously because they basically only ever comment to snark at people who complain about third party programs, whether it be bots, hacks, ACT, or whatever.

Which I can't help but find oddly suspicious when they openly advertise how they're involved in a Gilgamesh housing monopoly in their signature...

[Lastelli]

Sorry to say, this is the devs' fault. They should just officially support some reasonable/required add-ons like damage meters and UI mods and clearly ban those that cross the line...assuming they can even do that.

[Risvertasashi]

Sorry to say, this is the devs' fault. They should just officially support some reasonable/required add-ons like damage meters and UI mods and clearly ban those that cross the line...assuming they can even do that.

And that comes back to why I made the post. Seeing the conversations around this addon has been interesting - apparently WoW once had one like it, and their dev team was a lot more addon/mod friendly - but that crossed the line for them and they went out of their way to break it. If this is enough that the FFXIV dev team goes "Ok, we need to put a stop to this," I hope they'll give us a framework so what's available in that framework will serve as a way to show where SE draws the line. And if they do things like, say, encrypt parts of the client executable, then it won't break the stuff that plays nice.

[Avidria]

Where do you take this statement from ? When i see that there is tons of people, since a very long time, thinking that in advance automatic infallible call outs are fine, because "it is the same as having a human raid leader spelling them for you" or "it is the same as having memorized the fight", i dont doubt that they will also think that what is in these gifs is fine too, because let's see... Let's just take the same argument : "it is the same as having memorized the fight".

This is, step after step, what you get when many people are twisting words to say that other things of the same kind is totally not cheating, and that people not using them are totally not disavantaged at all compared to you.

I dont even think this will stir up a drama long enough to last all the week-end XD

Advance callouts are fine generally because they just say a mechanic is coming, not generally exactly where you need to move to avoid it when the game doesn't already tell you. I don't know much about call-out add-ons today since I haven't actively raided here since Alex, but I wouldn't call something like DBM in WoW for example cheating.

Telegraphing things that aren't supposed to be telegraphed though... definitely feels like crossing a line. One is possible, if potentially less accurate or quick, with just a person who knows the fight very well. The other isn't.

[Lambdafish]

This is also my worry: that this addon or addons like it that might come after make might SE feel compelled to do something instead of the usual practice of turning a blind eye. And that something might break the more mundane, but important to raiding addons.

Maybe I'm worrying too much.

The one thing I will say that will put your mind slightly at ease: Yoshi P does see both sides of the argument. He is an MMO player, and he sees the use of addons in other games, and recognises their importance to the raid scene. They cannot officially endorse them however because they do not want to divide the playerbase or create a situation where "parsers are mandatory because the devs said so". Thats why we currently have a "don't be a dick and you wont be banned" rule.

Notably, Arthus was banned for harrassment, not use of third party tools, that is a very notable use of "you will be banned if you use a parser to be a dick", but like you said about pandoras box, what are the implications of that? I would love to see an official statement from Yoshi P regarding the devs opinion of addons, but I doubt that would happen, I'm not sure what he would even say.

[linay]

I would love to see an official statement from Yoshi P regarding the devs opinion of addons, but I doubt that would happen, I'm not sure what he would even say.

I doubt that would happen because there is no reason for it. If the devs' opinion has any meaning in terms of enforcement, then it would align with the official rules. If it doesn't, then it doesn't matter what they think.

[Saranade]

Ah, finally. The only people who support ANY third party add on are the same people who call themselves 1337 because they beat Savage with the well known and popular third party parsing program, that calls out attacks, hunts, and now making it even easier for these so called elite snobs who upload parsing data to third party websites to feel like they are better than everyone.
Sick of this conversation, SE ban the third party tool and all the toxic players who use it, we all are aware of or at least patch it.