Community Discussion - Battle Theory

[Rydin]

+1 for all of this Rydin I don't care what Poet says about you (j/k) you are onto something here . The only thing I would say is if you restrict the incaps to 1 class then you know that people will say they need each of those classes. However most people have most if not all classes leveled.

My solution would be maybe have a couple different combos available to do each Incap. So the shield incap could be done with Lnc/ Mrd or Lnc/ Pug with pug doing Pounce > Sucker Punch form the side. or any combo of those 4 jobs.

Again great post and great ideas ^.^

Hey Brent...
yea... having 2 possibilities for each incap could work... you'd just have to make sure you dont have 1 class that can do all 3 or else people will just stack that class again.
Also, making it so only 1 class can do a certain incap would work as long as the content is still beatable without the incap. The special objective should just make the fight easier

[DeadRiser]

Anything to promote class diversity in parties and discourage class stacking is good in my eyes. I like the idea of making incapacitation more important as both a means to encourage strategic combat and class diversity. I mean they introduced it for the Ifrit primal and it served a purpose, but it wasn't made important enough. I don't know why they completely ignored it for the Moogle primal in favor of running around like chickens without heads.

The Ifrit thing is what got my attention. I remember before patch I wanted to get a MRD or PGL in the party so they could incap his horn. I think the abilities were concussion blow and something else, I forgot lol. What did the lancers want to do, OH we will equip that skill so it isn't as effective instead of inviting a different DD that could use it himself.

With moogle, it's all about binding. But what about side tanking the gladiator/marauder? Why not give that a chance? Or have a pgl try and stun the moogle. Or have someone kite it?

We had a party setup of gladiator, marauder, 2cnj, archer, pugilist, lancer, and a thaumaturge. We killed 2 moogles after memento and almost killed our third. Only thing that is keeping us from winning is proper crowd control which we don't really have besides bind/sleep/stun... which pisses me off since we can't even sleep them. That would make this SO less class stacking if they would have let us sleep the moogles (even just a small % chance of sucess). Back to the topic, we noticed that we can do it with a big group difference, it just takes the time and effort to get a group and work together towards beating it.

[Rydin]

The Ifrit thing is what got my attention. I remember before patch I wanted to get a MRD or PGL in the party so they could incap his horn. I think the abilities were concussion blow and something else, I forgot lol. What did the lancers want to do, OH we will equip that skill so it isn't as effective instead of inviting a different DD that could use it himself.

With moogle, it's all about binding. But what about side tanking the gladiator/marauder? Why not give that a chance? Or have a pgl try and stun the moogle. Or have someone kite it?

We had a party setup of gladiator, marauder, 2cnj, archer, pugilist, lancer, and a thaumaturge. We killed 2 moogles after memento and almost killed our third. Only thing that is keeping us from winning is proper crowd control which we don't really have besides bind/sleep/stun... which pisses me off since we can't even sleep them. That would make this SO less class stacking if they would have let us sleep the moogles (even just a small % chance of sucess). Back to the topic, we noticed that we can do it with a big group difference, it just takes the time and effort to get a group and work together towards beating it.

thats why I like the idea of combos setting up incaps...
or make it so incaps only work when a weaponskill is used by the actual class

[syntaxlies]

I hope they make the new battle regimen system require multiple classes so that taking a variety of classes is more effective. I also agree they should design the content so that one class doesn't have the clear advantage over others.

if the damage of the party bonus is bigger then the WS then this will encourage diverse party play. a combo that requires pug,lnc,archer,mrd, with a thm nuke would be ideal. If these huge damage burst were calculated into the battle upon creation of battle then people would have to have diverse party's out of necessity.

so if a perfect 5 hit chain hits and gets a 100%damage bonus at end, the days of class stacking will be over imo.

[Arcell]

if the damage of the party bonus is bigger then the WS then this will encourage diverse party play. a combo that requires pug,lnc,archer,mrd, with a thm nuke would be ideal. If these huge damage burst were calculated into the battle upon creation of battle then people would have to have diverse party's out of necessity.

so if a perfect 5 hit chain hits and gets a 100%damage bonus at end, the days of class stacking will be over imo.

Or if say having a MRD in the BR added Phys. Def down and having a PGL in the BR added Phys. Atk down. Stuff like that. Encourage a variety of classes to take part in the BR.

[Shiggysonson]

I dont remember where I read this, but I think yoshi said something about making the new battle regimen similar to the skill chain in ffxi. I'm hoping for something like Pgl combo > Drg combo > Thm combo = battle regimen.

[Rydin]

if the damage of the party bonus is bigger then the WS then this will encourage diverse party play. a combo that requires pug,lnc,archer,mrd, with a thm nuke would be ideal. If these huge damage burst were calculated into the battle upon creation of battle then people would have to have diverse party's out of necessity.

so if a perfect 5 hit chain hits and gets a 100%damage bonus at end, the days of class stacking will be over imo.

Or if say having a MRD in the BR added Phys. Def down and having a PGL in the BR added Phys. Atk down. Stuff like that. Encourage a variety of classes to take part in the BR.

I love these ideas....

[Jennestia]

thats why I like the idea of combos setting up incaps...
or make it so incaps only work when a weaponskill is used by the actual class

Basically something they introduced with ToAU era FFXI and Battle Regimen in XIV -- In XI if you strike a critical hit on an enemies weapon/shield/armor you can destroy it which will prevent certain TP moves and lower certain defenses/enfeeble them, i.e breaking Troll shields or destroying a Imps horn. (Even though Imps pull a new horn out of their ass sooner or later >.>)

Incaps are also present in XIII/XIII-2 so they clearly have a plan for combos, especially since a lot of the melee ones are directional and we still have directional triggers, i.e 'You hit the Goblin from the left for 329 points of damage.'

Whether it wants to be admitted or not, class stacking is indeed community driven -- It's been proven you can do any of the battles/strongholds as any real setup but the fact the winning combo was an archer setup, that's what people went with for Darkhold, for Ifrit, people went with Lancer and Sentinel simply because of Lancer's reach and moogles they went back with Archer because Archer was powerful again and because the winning setup was a burn setup.

SE can only do so much to design content that will allow for a variety of setups and ways to fight it, but if someone finds a way to do it efficiently or by class stacking, that's what will happen -- It happens in every MMO (finding most efficient way to do something), class stacking was more present in XI/XIV because the classes were actually varied enough and not just the same melee class redubbed "Dark" or "Light" nor same "Light" or "Dark" mage.

[DeadRiser]

I love these ideas....

Let's hope this gets more attention than the other dumb threads out there on the general discussion lol..

Like "this community sucks" or "i hate goobbues" threads xD.

I do like the idea about making incaps of certain weaponskills only work with those specific classes. That and making the incaps more visible/needed.

Like I noticed when fighting the moogles, that if you critical hit the blm (that does pom flare) while she's readying it up, she will stop casting and have to recast it again. I save up blindside on my Marauder and use it since it gives a pretty much guaranteed critical. Things like this is what we need and when the lag is finally fixed up I think that will also alleviate class stacking so much since archer's have it so easy with combos while melee dd's have such a rough time.

Which the combo system is almost another topic on itself.

[Rydin]

Basically something they introduced with ToAU era FFXI and Battle Regimen in XIV -- In XI if you strike a critical hit on an enemies weapon/shield/armor you can destroy it which will prevent certain TP moves and lower certain defenses/enfeeble them, i.e breaking Troll shields or destroying a Imps horn. (Even though Imps pull a new horn out of their ass sooner or later >.>)

Incaps are also present in XIII/XIII-2 so they clearly have a plan for combos, especially since a lot of the melee ones are directional and we still have directional triggers, i.e 'You hit the Goblin from the left for 329 points of damage.'

Whether it wants to be admitted or not, class stacking is indeed community driven -- It's been proven you can do any of the battles/strongholds as any real setup but the fact the winning combo was an archer setup, that's what people went with for Darkhold, for Ifrit, people went with Lancer and Sentinel simply because of Lancer's reach and moogles they went back with Archer because Archer was powerful again and because the winning setup was a burn setup.

SE can only do so much to design content that will allow for a variety of setups and ways to fight it, but if someone finds a way to do it efficiently or by class stacking, that's what will happen -- It happens in every MMO (finding most efficient way to do something), class stacking was more present in XI/XIV because the classes were actually varied enough and not just the same melee class redubbed "Dark" or "Light" nor same "Light" or "Dark" mage.

but a system like I outlined in the original post would go a long way in combatting class stacking