The Reason Zenos.

[Lauront]

Hmmm I can't say I agree entirely on that characterisation of how Varis saw Zenos.

The way in which he calls him a monster when discussing him with Elidibus suggests he saw him as something worse, and not merely a royal seeking power. What I think Varis could not fathom is Zenos's mindset - his desire to seek nothing but self-satisfaction, with no further, deeper reason or agenda behind his goals, but he clearly believed there was something ghastly about him.

I kind of agree with your assessment of Zenos otherwise, but I just find him bland. He shows no reaction to the newfound powers he's exhibiting as facets of the Resonance... he's just perpetually reminding everyone of how bored he is. Fine, to a point, but he better get to one, and fast, or people are going to grow even more bored of him in turn.

I don't really care that he's got no real depth to him, but they could at least make him more entertaining. I also still believe he is going to get more than he is bargaining for out of Zodiark. His is a case of true hubris and it looks like he's simply the fulcrum to bring Zodiark into the plot without the need for all the Rejoinings to be completed.

That's a common misconception. Varis didn't approve of Aulus' experiments, Zenos sought him out of his own accord. Everything Zenos did to 'enhance' himself was very much of his own choice, he wasn't experimented on by his father. He has no sympathetic and tragic backstory. He's just a bad apple. His father wasn't exaggerating when he called him a spoiled princeling, that's exactly what he is.

Yup. There's no confirmation Varis ever experimented upon him. Zenos is a thrill-seeker and would often take risks of his own accord to circumvent his limitations. Varis removed Aulus from the Imperial Court. At worst, I think he may have simply observed to see if anything interesting came out of the experiments under Zenos's auspice.

The sole reference to an experiment I am aware of came from Elidibus in the JP version, but it's not phrased in a way to suggest Zenos was experimented upon, but rather that the entire affair was an experiment. Varis only began resorting to technologies he had previously ruled out once pushed into war by Elidibus, with the express purpose of safeguarding Pureblood lives.

Zenos is not a bad villian because he needs a interesting backstory or a sympathetic one, he is a bad villian because he has next to no presence and desperately needs a plateful of ham and cheese, let him completely chew the scenery with his very being. Zenos is a doer not a planner the fact he has been so reserved despite his character is what makes him boring even when he was with the WoL he is still reserved. Zenos is an open book yet nothing pops out.

Which is why people are already more intrigued by his new "friend", than him - presumably someone who doesn't mind endangering both Primals, or deceiving Zenos in some manner. His plan, as it stands, is just an idle fancy. If he really is aiming to absorb Zodiark, he has no way of ensuring the WoL does the same with Hydaelyn, to give him the match he so desires, and I think it is a pity that SE did not have Elidibus play some 4D chess here by putting the idea in his mind to pursue Hydaelyn instead in order that Zenos could secure your compliance with his plan... depending on how they write Zodiark and any further surrounding lore up, that would leave open an avenue for truly becoming a WoD - just not necessarily with the full Ascian agenda in mind - and would open up some interesting scenarios.

[Valic]

Hmmm I can't say I agree entirely on that characterisation of how Varis saw Zenos.

The way in which he calls him a monster when discussing him with Elidibus suggests he saw him as something worse, and not merely a royal seeking power. What I think Varis could not fathom is Zenos's mindset - his desire to seek nothing but self-satisfaction, with no further, deeper reason or agenda behind his goals, but he clearly believed there was something ghastly about him.

I kind of agree with your assessment of Zenos otherwise, but I just find him bland. He shows no reaction to the newfound powers he's exhibiting as facets of the Resonance... he's just perpetually reminding everyone of how bored he is. Fine, to a point, but he better get to one, and fast, or people are going to grow even more bored of him in turn.

I don't really care that he's got no real depth to him, but they could at least make him more entertaining. I also still believe he is going to get more than he is bargaining for out of Zodiark. His is a case of true hubris and it looks like he's simply the fulcrum to bring Zodiark into the plot without the need for all the Rejoinings to be completed.

Personally I find him interesting because of the chaos he brings so swiftly and easily. He's already setup the next expansion for us, it HAS to be Garlemald, there's too much going on from SB and ShB to not have us go to Garlemald and settle things down over there. I like him in a way that I like seeing Green in pokemon games. It's more of "oh god, what's this fker up to now" for me and slowly building on becoming strong enough to actually be worth a damn for WoL. I also find his fixation on WoL kinda gives us some nicer lighting in that regard. It's nice we have someone who isn't just gonna go down the drain like every other bad guy and actually... idk, stands a chance of actually killing us? As you said, it kinda ties in Zodiark for some things, and it can go any way, either with Zenos being the big bad of all darkness/power, or with Zodiark corrupting him and taking advantage of his gained power to do so.

If I'm honest, the main thing I'm hooked on him with is his beyond comprehension mentality. FF needs that in a villain and while we have plenty of perfectly written characters, I find Zenos fits the niche of the "muahaha" villain that every good FF needs. Politics and culture is all fine, but when you look beyond it all, beyond time/space/infinity.... you get some bizarre extremes.

[Mansion]

If I'm honest, the main thing I'm hooked on him with is his beyond comprehension mentality. FF needs that in a villain and while we have plenty of perfectly written characters, I find Zenos fits the niche of the "muahaha" villain that every good FF needs. Politics and culture is all fine, but when you look beyond it all, beyond time/space/infinity.... you get some bizarre extremes.

That's where I don't follow. I don't think he has the "pure evil" vibe that some villains have (the first to come to my mind is Kefka). So Zenos could have some potential to develop in that character of a villain-because-he-is-evil, but it need far more writing that "my friend, my enemy" on and on. I kinda like the way he might be used as a tool by other villains though, so I'm curious to see how things unfold around him. But I'd be more convinced by that kind of outcome of people trying to manipulate him into something rather than his own behaviour.

[Valic]

That's where I don't follow. I don't think he has the "pure evil" vibe that some villains have (the first to come to my mind is Kefka). So Zenos could have some potential to develop in that character of a villain-because-he-is-evil, but it need far more writing that "my friend, my enemy" on and on. I kinda like the way he might be used as a tool by other villains though, so I'm curious to see how things unfold around him. But I'd be more convinced by that kind of outcome of people trying to manipulate him into something rather than his own behaviour.

I mean.... look at Sephiroth. Obsessed long haired katana wieldin man chases down main protagonist and final fight is mutation god thing....

What's Zenos?

wields katana.

long hair.

experimented on him for powers/magics

obsessed with main character....

Does he not fit the quota perfectly?

Which is all fair enough. Personally, I don't find his mentality to be that beyond comprehension. He seems to believe that he is the WoL's twinned (or mirrored, if you prefer) soul, in a sense, but in all honesty I believe the Ascians, and especially Emet-Selch, are closer to the WoL in that their primary loyalty is to a higher purpose, namely the restoration of their homeland, their god and their world, and what they see as the natural order; all things the WoL takes on as well, but from the opposite side. With recent revelations, we know that they are cut from the same cloth but of a different hue. Zenos has identified one trait of the WoL, his supposed bloodlust, and identifies with that. It's a twisted caricature, in a way, much like Zenos himself is, but I really think he is deluded enough to think the WoL shares his mindset, which is demonstrated with his expectation that the WoL will simply do the same to Hydaelyn as he intends to do to Zodiark. I suppose what interests me about him is that he is a defiance of the natural order, his gift - the Resonance - being the epitome of this. In terms of raw power, though? Several antagonists, not least of which Hades, had the raw ability to kill the WoL; the real issue was and will remain the Blessing of Light.

I suspect there is one differentiating factor between Zenos and the other foes we've faced, and that is his sheer hubris and hunger for power. To that end, he is willing to do something like try to absorb a god, and because of that, maybe he will be the first foe to be able to suppress the Blessing outright by means other than merely exhausting Hydaelyn, which even Lahabrea and Hades were incapable of doing... with the power of a god behind him, he may mirror the WoL in that singular respect. He is also a wrecking ball in the pursuit of his sole objective, and it definitely looks like he is being used to that effect by his new friend. I also think Elidibus is confident he will cause chaos on the Source.

He will eventually go down the drain, IMO, and he could well suffer a fate like the WoL when trying to absorb all that corrupted light - his Resonant soul tearing at its seams as Zodiark's sheer presence overwhelms it. If I had to guess, we'll probably face him in some kind of One Winged Angel showdown, and his defeat will be the catalyst for Zodiark to break free. Will this be the Zodiark of the ancient world, or some corrupted version of him, like Lakshmi when summoned out of grief? Who knows. Maybe he will have the ability to contain him, but I also feel SE want to give us a chance to encounter Zodiark more directly, since he has been the focal point of so much of the lore up to now.

I suppose I always found Elidibus to be the more intriguing antagonist, because he always had a genuine curiosity about the WoL, unlike Zenos's delusional caricature of the character, and he knows so much more than just about anyone in the plot, and we've yet to see what role he played in ancient times, and what role he still intends to play. Zenos lacks that potential, so I find him interesting... but to a point. Since he'll likely be around longer between the two of them, with it looking like 5.x will mostly focus on the Ascians, and 6.x on wrapping up the Hydaelyn/Zodiark saga (maaaaybe it'll seep into 7.x), I'd like for them to at least work on making Zenos more engaging, even if he won't get much of a rationale beyond wanting the ultimate showdown. I think it is a fair criticism of him that he lacks personality at the moment and that this needs to be rectified.

On another note, the Ascians stumbled on a really good trick with the Lightwardens, as it uses the WoL's blessing against him/her, so I am wondering if this is what Elidibus will capitalise on re-creating next, rather than summoning literal WoLs... there is a lot of hints that he is this WoL he spoke of at the end of 5.0. We'll see.

Lastly, as a personal wish I'd love to see Emet-Selch in Dissidia next!

I guess I just find the ascians base motive(s) very.... base? Zenos, we don't truly know the goal in mind. Ascians, it's always muahahaha we'll kill the light muahahaha....While that's been able to fly for some time now, I'm kinda more interested in going beyond all that? I find a being wanting to be the end all be all of universal beginning and end to be a bit more appealing. I'm almost positive Zenos is going to become the opposite of the Big Bang. Or at least, I think he wants some form of that that includes maximum power WoL vs Maximum power Zenos.

I think people need to give Zenos a chance, it's been one expac of him and some hints through another expac, and he's building up as time passes... most bad guys we've face seem to die either in an expac or in the fabled "between the end of an expac and beginning of another" area. I'd like a villain that doesn't get offed in that manner of time for a change. I also think ascians lean towards more of a lawful evil.... whereas Zenos leans more towards a chaotic evil.... And the latter being a MAIN villain? Gives me a bit of fear. As a side villain, okay I get it... it's a joke and wacky and they'll likely be an idiot... but as someone who's well within reason and knowledge of things the main character is up to and has general understanding rather than just "I'ma do a bad cuz luls"... I find that much more terrifying than another perspective we differ from (ya know... again.) the whole "ascians could be right" thing is neat and all but I'm ready for universe shattering battle that actually brands me the warrior of light for more than just slaying dragons, ascians, and summons. I wanna defeat the thing that would "actually" end the world... not the things all the characters seem to hype up "could" end the world whe really all they'd do is just change things. If Emet Selch succeeded... maybe they'd get a rejoining and maybe the people would come back and zodiark bla bla all that and hey we have a whole planet of ascians again. If Omega succeeded, he'd destroy life I guess. If the garleans succeed, they take over bla bla.... YAAAAAAAAAAWN. What about someone willing to end existence itself? Not just ever life, but every star, every light, darkness, all of it, just blank nothingness. The edge of realities, between nothing and everything. Now THAT is a boss I think I can claim the title "warrior of light" for, someone who's hubris extends beyond the cosmos themselves, beyond base motives. Where not just people would die, where not just a world would blow up... but EVERYTHING, erased. Now that could just be the FF8 fanboy in me talking, but I find that much more interesting than these.... so far.... small scale "muahahaha" plans that our villains have us face.

[Mahoukenshi]

What about someone willing to end existence itself? Not just ever life, but every star, every light, darkness, all of it, just blank nothingness. The edge of realities, between nothing and everything. Now THAT is a boss I think I can claim the title "warrior of light" for, someone who's hubris extends beyond the cosmos themselves, beyond base motives. Where not just people would die, where not just a world would blow up... but EVERYTHING, erased. Now that could just be the FF8 fanboy in me talking, but I find that much more interesting than these.... so far.... small scale "muahahaha" plans that our villains have us face.

n all existence-ending desiring villain? Sounds to me equally boring / generic as effing Necron from FF9 as they could just let him destroy the other remaining shards for the lulz off-screen.

Why? Itll still be the same. At that point it's just xmen vs street fighter with cheat codes to do nothing but full screen hadokens and berserk barrages. I'd rather Zenos kills both gods and we have to fight an actual threat. Cause Zenos ain't it now.

Why would that be more interesting? It will still end as OP MC vs OP villain just under a different cover and with different colors because at that point all our non-random adventurer allies will be graded down to "cheerleaders"; same for non-OP subvillains. The power imbalance has already been there.

[Valic]

n all existence-ending desiring villain? Sounds to me equally boring / generic as effing Necron from FF9 as they could just let him destroy the other remaining shards for the lulz off-screen.

But he has nothing to gain from destroying the remaining shards? Again, it's not like he's doing fk all "because lul". He has a reason, and it's us. Also every FF boss kinda.. does that. They just do it in different evil monologues lol.

[monk-dps]

n all existence-ending desiring villain? Sounds to me equally boring / generic as effing Necron from FF9 as they could just let him destroy the other remaining shards for the lulz off-screen.


Why would that be more interesting? It will still end as OP MC vs OP villain just under a different cover and with different colors because at that point all our non-random adventurer allies will be graded down to "cheerleaders"; same for non-OP subvillains. The power imbalance has already been there.

Because at that point he had atleast done something. The idea I was going against was him just doing the same thing he did in sb with shinryu.

[Kallera]

I think my biggest problem I have with zenos is that he regularly seems to be scoring own goals in the favor of the protagonists’ side, and his goal—a rematch with more divine puppets that we just so happen to be skilled at killing, just isn’t interesting to me as it has only one outcome, he loses against us.

I find that Zenos is not only just boring, but detrimental to the story, as a villain is literally paving the way of the heroes’ victory, just for the fight at the end which, while exciting for him, is not exciting for me, as it only has one true outcome, his defeat, as he time and again just forfeits his victories and acts against his allies. Zenos’ railroading ultimately serves not even himself.

[Lauront]

I guess I just find the ascians base motive(s) very.... base? Zenos, we don't truly know the goal in mind. Ascians, it's always muahahaha we'll kill the light muahahaha....While that's been able to fly for some time now, I'm kinda more interested in going beyond all that? I find a being wanting to be the end all be all of universal beginning and end to be a bit more appealing. I'm almost positive Zenos is going to become the opposite of the Big Bang. Or at least, I think he wants some form of that that includes maximum power WoL vs Maximum power Zenos.

I'm afraid I just don't agree. Their goals are far from base (restoring the world to what it once was) and the story behind it is pretty complex, opening the curtains to the world before the Sundering. Zenos isn't going to take it beyond that, except and insofar as he may rush Zodiark's summoning. His role in the plot is, as far as I can tell, to thrust Zodiark into the story much faster than he otherwise would be and any real world-ending potential comes from Zodiark's power and not him. Zenos is also quite open about what his goal is - it's more so the means that vary, but even so, there's only so long you can sustain that and maintain player interest.

I do think the Zodiark/Hydaelyn arc has dragged on for a while now, but I just don't see Zenos providing any lasting depth beyond it... if anything, he will catalyse its conclusion and we will move onto some other story, especially with the knowledge that there are other worlds out there beyond the shards, each with their own threats. Few people have much appetite for Zenos as some enduring villain who just keeps trying to ratchet up the "power levels" to get his kicks. A lot of people - myself included - would find that a lot more boring. Meanwhile, we're still finding out what the world before the Sundering was like and what Zodiark and Hydaelyn truly are.

I'm honestly praying at this point that he starts working with the Ascians whether willingly or otherwise since I can't see how him continuing to be a wild card is going to contribute to the plot in a meaningful fashion.

I think that ship has sailed, and it is a pity. IMO, his new "friend", whom I suspect to be a former WoD or Ascian, disgruntled or otherwise, is going to lead him by the nose so that SE can get Zodiark into the story sooner rather than later.

Note: If other people like Zenos that's fine, I'm not saying my opinion is fact and anyone that likes him is dumb or anything. For me though he just really fell flat as a character and as a meaningful obstacle in the story, and I was disappointed again in that what I felt would have been an actually interesting arc for him in SHB was wrapped up all too quickly and easily. But for those that liked him, more power to him, and as much as I don't like him, for the initial premise of this thread I do think he makes the most sense to add to Dissidia because the only other long running villain we really have left is Elidibus who doesn't seem to be a combatant exept when possessing Zenos' body anyway.

Whether Elidibus is or not, Emet-Selch would be the likelier pick for an Ascian addition to Dissidia given his now established popularity.

The issue with simple and complex sympathetic villains, is that they don't play that well with eachother in the same story and narrative. Our current over arching story relies heavily on moral relativism and subverting our definition of good and evil. Aside from the Ascians, we've been fed the narrative that there is no truly good and evil. Villains have their agenda, and we just disagree with them (for varying reasons and degrees).

Now with SHB even the Ascians been upgraded to that standing. They are no longer just EVUL, but have a justification and reason why they are doing what they are doing.

Placing a simple character in such an ongoing story usually doesn't go well. It either goes against established narrative, or comes across as a simpleton.

Zenos had his chance in SB. He did not impress. Maybe they'll hammer out his character so more people will enjoy it later, but the negativity towards him isn't unfounded.

Agreed. His main use is that he can fast track Zodiark's involvement in the story, IMO.

[Bright-Flower]

I'm afraid I just don't agree. Their goals are far from base (restoring the world to what it once was) and the story behind it is pretty complex, opening the curtains to the world before the Sundering. Zenos isn't going to take it beyond that, except and insofar as he may rush Zodiark's summoning. His role in the plot is, as far as I can tell, to thrust Zodiark into the story much faster than he otherwise would be and any real world-ending potential comes from Zodiark's power and not him. Zenos is also quite open about what his goal is - it's more so the means that vary, but even so, there's only so long you can sustain that and maintain player interest.

I do think the Zodiark/Hydaelyn arc has dragged on for a while now, but I just don't see Zenos providing any lasting depth beyond it... if anything, he will catalyse its conclusion and we will move onto some other story, especially with the knowledge that there are other worlds out there beyond the shards, each with their own threats. Few people have much appetite for Zenos as some enduring villain who just keeps trying to ratchet up the "power levels" to get his kicks. A lot of people - myself included - would find that a lot more boring. Meanwhile, we're still finding out what the world before the Sundering was like and what Zodiark and Hydaelyn truly are.



I think that ship has sailed, and it is a pity. IMO, his new "friend", whom I suspect to be a former WoD or Ascian, disgruntled or otherwise, is going to lead him by the nose so that SE can get Zodiark into the story sooner rather than later.



Whether Elidibus is or not, Emet-Selch would be the likelier pick for an Ascian addition to Dissidia given his now established popularity.



Agreed. His main use is that he can fast track Zodiark's involvement in the story, IMO.

Maybe, but Emet Selch was a one expansion baddie. Elidibus and Zenos now are really the only two to be in more than one expansion. Okay technically Emet Selch was in a couple late SB patches but it was mostly just setting him up, he didn't really do anything big or get explored much until SHB and now....