PLDs: You have Clemency for a reason.

[MerlinCross]

Personally I question if Skill and Experience has helped to push this debate.

I rarely see Clemency as "Required" but more a crutch in case things get out of hand, same with Red's Vecure. Now more experienced players will claim it's a DPS loss for both, that it's better for the Healer to pop (insert ability here) but those are with the benefit of knowing the game far better or having reliable teammates. Though even solo, some Healers are able to manage the incoming damage properly to the point Clemency isn't needed. But it's not supposed to be needed in the first place. It's Training wheels.

Also, given I haven't run through the game as a PLD, how much would it hurt them if Clemancy was removed? For both their Job quests and Story Fights? And speaking of removed, a lot of people argue against it's use so what's the point in having it, but at the same time, what do you guys think would be a good replacement?

Maybe if Clemancy was changed to do something else but even then if it became a more Proactive defense CD I don't know if people would like giving up 1-3 GCDs a fight.

[Maeka]

Personally I question if Skill and Experience has helped to push this debate.

I rarely see Clemency as "Required" but more a crutch in case things get out of hand, same with Red's Vecure. Now more experienced players will claim it's a DPS loss for both, that it's better for the Healer to pop (insert ability here) but those are with the benefit of knowing the game far better or having reliable teammates. Though even solo, some Healers are able to manage the incoming damage properly to the point Clemency isn't needed. But it's not supposed to be needed in the first place. It's Training wheels.

Also, given I haven't run through the game as a PLD, how much would it hurt them if Clemancy was removed? For both their Job quests and Story Fights? And speaking of removed, a lot of people argue against it's use so what's the point in having it, but at the same time, what do you guys think would be a good replacement?

Maybe if Clemancy was changed to do something else but even then if it became a more Proactive defense CD I don't know if people would like giving up 1-3 GCDs a fight.

Clemency is awesome. I love having it.

It's a button that can get you out of a lot of jams, it's a button that makes PLD my favorite job to do FATEs with, it's a nice button that lets me save a healer's life sometimes, it's a button that can sometimes save the healer a cast of Raise if timed properly.

It's a very powerful tool in the toolbox, and I love having it. So please don't take it away.

I never meant to say that it should be thrown around like candy, but just taking it away and replacing it with yet another passive defense button is just.... eh.... no thanks. I, as a PLD, have saved quite a few lives with that little button, including my own.

The problem is, is that everybody is too fixated on "MAX DEEEEEEEPS" and anything that doesn't do DPS, or even worse, anything that interferes with DPS is seen as "bad". Clemency takes a couple seconds to cast, it eats up MP that could be used for a damage spell instead, so it's evil in the eyes of the general public. This is regardless of the fact that you never need Max DPS in anything that isn't Savage Raiding.

If anything, I would say that we should find ways to move people away from caring so much about DPS of Tanks and Healers than anything. It's unhealthy for the game and it leads to stuff like this. I remember back in early to mid Heavensward, where people in Duty Finder didn't really seem to care about DPS tanks or healers were doing back then. Fast-forward to now, Tanks and Healers alike are trying to push as high DPS as they can, and everything has to be a speedrun. I remember doing dungeons back in ARR, and we pulled single groups. Now you have to pull 2, 3 sometimes more groups or people start complaining.

It's just crazy what things have come to.

If savage raiders and speedrunners wanna get their 10-12 minute dungeon runs, they shouldn't be looking for them in Duty Finder. Just as that other person I quoted tells me I shouldn't be looking for PLDs willing to cast Clemency in Duty Finder, lol. The door swings both ways.

[MerlinCross]

I mean to be fair Maeka, I like having it myself from what little I've played of PLD. But I'm also someone that likes Shield Bash(Make it do more), and thinks Divine Veil is weird(Useless solo, just an AoE blunter for everyone but you?).

But much like Shield bash(RIP), if everything is goine fine you shouldn't need it. Yes you can do some neat saves with it but if the Healers are on point you shouldn't have to use it, or possibly the content will end up in a wipe even with that extra bit of healing so why bother.

IT's why I call it a Crutch. At lower levels of skill and nerves, it could be useful if the Healer is in the middle of a panic. As a WHM myself, I dislike seeing it go out before or after I popped healing but also I'm aware PLD have a good heal so unless they are in a state where one hit will kill them I move to other people first for healing. Or I heal them as they heal me/someone else. It's a nice thing to see when a PLD helps out when I'm in the middle of juggling a bunch of people's HP bars.

But to a more skilled Tank and Healer, they're probably aware that at the damage/differculty they are at Clemency isn't going to be as helpful. And the Healer has enough skill to not panic and get the healing out no problem. So why does this button exist outside of niche cases at this level?

Now this isn't to talk down to you or anything, I have no idea what level you play at. Just my own thoughts; I find Clemency to be more useful with randos and non savage content than I do with Premades/raid groups and the tougher fights.

[Maeka]

I mean to be fair Maeka, I like having it myself from what little I've played of PLD. But I'm also someone that likes Shield Bash(Make it do more), and thinks Divine Veil is weird(Useless solo, just an AoE blunter for everyone but you?).

But much like Shield bash(RIP), if everything is goine fine you shouldn't need it. Yes you can do some neat saves with it but if the Healers are on point you shouldn't have to use it, or possibly the content will end up in a wipe even with that extra bit of healing so why bother.

IT's why I call it a Crutch. At lower levels of skill and nerves, it could be useful if the Healer is in the middle of a panic. As a WHM myself, I dislike seeing it go out before or after I popped healing but also I'm aware PLD have a good heal so unless they are in a state where one hit will kill them I move to other people first for healing. Or I heal them as they heal me/someone else. It's a nice thing to see when a PLD helps out when I'm in the middle of juggling a bunch of people's HP bars.

But to a more skilled Tank and Healer, they're probably aware that at the damage/differculty they are at Clemency isn't going to be as helpful. And the Healer has enough skill to not panic and get the healing out no problem. So why does this button exist outside of niche cases at this level?

Now this isn't to talk down to you or anything, I have no idea what level you play at. Just my own thoughts; I find Clemency to be more useful with randos and non savage content than I do with Premades/raid groups and the tougher fights.

Obviously, Clemency should not be needed in a Pre-made higher-level fight.

I don't debate that for even a second. It's still a nice spell, and yes, it's nice to have in randoms when you don't know your healer, and/or you don't know if they might look away from the screen for a second because of an RL distraction, get a spot of lag, or maybe a healer doesn't know the dungeon and ends up eating dirt because they didn't know/forgot about/don't understand a mechanic, or what-not.

There's more content in the game than the endgame, and there's nothing wrong with having a tool in the toolbox that's geared more towards leveling content. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Just like Vercure isn't really meant for Savage Raiding, but yet, it's a nice little spell for solo and the occasional clutch heal. Heck, I've main-healed Tioman in Sohm Al on a couple occasions as a RDM because the actual healer would drop dead on the first Star attack. Not something you do on a regular basis, but it's nice when a rarely used tool in your toolbox saves a group.

As a healer myself, if I see a PLD using Clemency at 75%+ health, I just go "uh... whatever. They don't trust me, but I get it, I'm some rando, I can throw more DPS instead I suppose". It really doesn't bother me whatsoever. Maybe the tank is bored of doing the same DPS rotations over and over again and decided they'd do something different. Maybe they wanna have a heal race with me to see who can heal the DPS who ate a mechanic first. Who knows. It's Duty Finder. Relax. We're not doing progression raiding or anything, where every DPS matters.

Heck there are times I got a little bored, and I would do things like start casting heals before someone gets hit, just to see how close I can pull off an "immediate" heal, so that my heal lands like less than a second after the damage was taken, etc.

Duty Finder gives you plenty of room to just relax and have fun a bit and do unorthodox stuff for the fun of it.

[Yorumi]

Also, given I haven't run through the game as a PLD, how much would it hurt them if Clemancy was removed? For both their Job quests and Story Fights? And speaking of removed, a lot of people argue against it's use so what's the point in having it, but at the same time, what do you guys think would be a good replacement?

The spell is fine as it is really. Pld's already have too many skills anyway. PLds are supposed to have healing magic so it's good thematically. It's good for solo stuff and fine as an emergency skill from time to time. Mainly what people here are trying to get others to understand is that you shouldn't expect a non-healer to heal. Lets put it another way if we're letting the healer off the hook for failing to heal properly then we sure as heck can't blame the pld or rdm for not healing. Personally for me I just don't encounter healer that fail to keep me alive. Maybe it's because I do a good job tanking but if that's the case then we're basically looking at a combination of a bad healer with a bad tank and really what do we expect at that point?

[WhyAmIHere]

The spell is fine as it is really. Pld's already have too many skills anyway. PLds are supposed to have healing magic so it's good thematically. It's good for solo stuff and fine as an emergency skill from time to time. Mainly what people here are trying to get others to understand is that you shouldn't expect a non-healer to heal. Lets put it another way if we're letting the healer off the hook for failing to heal properly then we sure as heck can't blame the pld or rdm for not healing. Personally for me I just don't encounter healer that fail to keep me alive. Maybe it's because I do a good job tanking but if that's the case then we're basically looking at a combination of a bad healer with a bad tank and really what do we expect at that point?

I disagree on your point about PLD having too many skills, otherwise I agree.

IMO PLD has clemency for the same reason Living Dead hasn't been adjusted at all despite the outcry for it: ClAsS fAnTaSy

[Yorumi]

I disagree on your point about PLD having too many skills, otherwise I agree.

I mostly mean that it's the one class where I'm running out of buttons. Without an mmo mouse it because difficult to find a place to put everything.

[MerlinCross]

The spell is fine as it is really. Pld's already have too many skills anyway. PLds are supposed to have healing magic so it's good thematically. It's good for solo stuff and fine as an emergency skill from time to time. Mainly what people here are trying to get others to understand is that you shouldn't expect a non-healer to heal. Lets put it another way if we're letting the healer off the hook for failing to heal properly then we sure as heck can't blame the pld or rdm for not healing. Personally for me I just don't encounter healer that fail to keep me alive. Maybe it's because I do a good job tanking but if that's the case then we're basically looking at a combination of a bad healer with a bad tank and really what do we expect at that point?

"The spell is fine, just don't use it".

If the community doesn't use a skill/spell, it should be removed or changed. Heck I'm surprised they let us keep the Binds on Ranged when those also barely get used, and while I liked Shield bash, It also doesn't really serve a purpose. Not with Low blow being a thing. I mean there's niche cases but when the community basically says "You are bad if you use this" then why let it exist? If we're talking Thematic, shall we look over at MNK with how thematic it's Fists stances are and how beloved they are? Oh Wait, bad example. Now don't get me wrong, Thematic is a big part of a job/class(Heck I dropped MCH because we lost the gunslinger part of it's theme), but if we're arguing to keep a skill no one uses because it fits in the theme, we're not going to get anywhere. Espically with skill bloat as you mentioned with too many buttons. Just purge Clemency and Shield bash, there's 2 thematic skills that aren't really used gone.

No I'm not trying to let the healer off the hook for failing but there's any number of reasons why they can't heal at that point. I myself am a Panic Monkey of a Healer which means I tend to use my actual Cure Spells more than focusing on my OCDs. But at the same time I'm trying to get better, and appreciate anything you can do to help me. Perhaps this makes me a bad healer, but there's a reason I don't play a healer in Savage, I'm quite aware my spaztic healing nature is probably going to lead to people dying.

I don't expect PLD or RDM to heal but if you see a chance to do so, could you try to help?

[Maeka]

and while I liked Shield bash, It also doesn't really serve a purpose. Not with Low blow being a thing.

Low Blow has a long-ish cooldown (25s is a long time in some pulls with some mobs), Shield Bash does not.

[WhyAmIHere]

"The spell is fine, just don't use it".

If the community doesn't use a skill/spell, it should be removed or changed. Heck I'm surprised they let us keep the Binds on Ranged when those also barely get used, and while I liked Shield bash, It also doesn't really serve a purpose. Not with Low blow being a thing.
SCH's seldom used Selene except for Fey Wind prepull. Then they removed Selene, gave us Eos 1 and Eos 2, and took away Selene's AoE Esuna... only to implement in the current Ultimate tier a mechanic that requires 6 casts of Esuna.
Careful whatcha wish for?

No I'm not trying to let the healer off the hook for failing but there's any number of reasons why they can't heal at that point. I myself am a Panic Monkey of a Healer which means I tend to use my actual Cure Spells more than focusing on my OCDs. But at the same time I'm trying to get better, and appreciate anything you can do to help me. Perhaps this makes me a bad healer, but there's a reason I don't play a healer in Savage, I'm quite aware my spaztic healing nature is probably going to lead to people dying.

I don't expect PLD or RDM to heal but if you see a chance to do so, could you try to help?
Knowing your limits is good. Honestly it's all about stages. Practice healing dungeons. Then when you're 100% comfortable with that heal on-content extreme trials. Get better, learn your chosen healer's kit more thoroughly, and continue to develop comfort. Practice practice practice. Once you see healing EX trials is a joke, just try healing the first floor of a savage tier. Practice there, and keep learning and improving. Get more comfortable and familiar with how your kit can be utilized fully and optimally in that fight.

But yeah nah. Don't expect/anticipate/hope that a non-healer with a healing ability will ever use it. Train yourself not to rely on it. Pretend it doesn't exist. It's the only way you yourself can improve, by not having any mental / gameplay crutches to fall back on to except your own skill.

Bolded my 2 cents.