Male Viera as a playable character! show your support

[Melichoir]

I'd definitely hate to see the gender/race combo hijacked to appease those who want the men to be drastically different to the women for the sake of being niche.

I dont think anyone is hijacking anything but rather just explaining their preferences, which is no different than what youre doing. I mean, if we go by how you are contextually using the word, than you yourself are also guilty of 'hijacking' the thread for getting your preferences front and center rather than just stating what you personally like to see.

There have definitely been attempts to hijack the cause, though. Or are we now pretending that Yoshi-P didn't have to make a statement specifically saying that they will not be designed to resemble children...? It was unfortunate that he had to point that out in the first place.

Theres a few breakdowns here. First, I know other people have mentioned how yoshi P envisions them, but hes not the sole designer. If anything hes the rubber stamper. He can have his input and put his vision out there but he is not inherently the person who solely picks what goes where. He literally has professional designers on his team that do the bulk of the designing and is extremely likely that they throw out a ton of design variations that are all drastically different jsut to see what works and what doesnt. Thats design basics 101. So nothing is ruled out just because Yoshi P said his personal PoV on it.

This is important cause yes, we may end up with dimorphic males for Viera. Males that could be smaller or different from the females. The point though about "Oh they wont be designed like children" is an oversimplification and misread of what people were asking for from Yoshi P. Generally speaking on the OFs, people werent asking for the males to be children (typically, as I know there were a few people who wanted that) but wanted cuter male characters. Theres a drastic difference but for some reason people are equating cute means child. The driving point is that people wanted a design that isnt big chiseled block of wood laquered in raw testosterone, but something cuter and softer in design. That there is a difference between child like and cute. Frankly the game could probably benefit in the end from that IMO, because we actually have pretty much every basic Trope of design for males so far (Fierce, Rugged, Average, Elegant, Funny).

Consider it this way, Fem Viera and Fem Roes are designed to be more sexy than cute, and by comparison, Fem Miqote and AuRa are definitely have design aspects to make them more cute than sexy. Neither of them would be construed as being children. Are we gonna suggest that because a character is male that they cannot be designed cute unless theyre specifically designed to be a child analogue? That the only way to have a male character is if theyre ripped, tall, and rugged?

[Senn]

This is important cause yes, we may end up with dimorphic males for Viera. Males that could be smaller or different from the females. The point though about "Oh they wont be designed like children" is an oversimplification and misread of what people were asking for from Yoshi P. Generally speaking on the OFs, people werent asking for the males to be children (typically, as I know there were a few people who wanted that) but wanted cuter male characters. Theres a drastic difference but for some reason people are equating cute means child. The driving point is that people wanted a design that isnt big chiseled block of wood laquered in raw testosterone, but something cuter and softer in design. That there is a difference between child like and cute. Frankly the game could probably benefit in the end from that IMO, because we actually have pretty much every basic Trope of design for males so far (Fierce, Rugged, Average, Elegant, Funny).

I'm sure he's aware of all of that, but he'll try to mischaracterize what people are saying. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It's like he's throwing a tantrum lol I was in the middle of posting art I just found, and didn't realize he's been spamming more pictures until I refreshed the page.

[Lauront]

*snip*

Well, I doubt Viera are going to be the race they're going to buckle in on and introduce a "soft" or "cute" version of it. You can already make Miqo'te with "cute" faces, and very short, and Midlander males can go a step further and set the muscle tone to zero. So it's not like you can't already do it and it's not like these options don't exist. As such, demands for it to be done on the basis of some perceived "need" aren't on a particularly strong footing.

If anything, they will do what they did with the females and perfect Elezen, since that race is/was held down by its very awkward animations but fits an archetype that people would like to play. This is one of the few games where the elves look so much worse than the humans. So I would not be too surprised if they do end up going with something like the OmegaM model, or in terms of art, something like the FrischeNq piece.

And sorry but when people point to the likes of Alphinaud for "inspiration" in terms of what they mean by cute, it is veering on a more child-like design. Granted, he's a teenager, but a particularly young looking one. I've seen some art suggested here which is even more neotenous than that. There have been builds posted, such as FrischeNq's art, which are neither walls of muscle nor soft feminine boys but even these don't meet the requirements of some posters...

The vibe I expect of the males is what we've seen of the females: athletic and attractive. Not "cute" and not "soft".

[Senn]

If anything, they will do what they did with the females and perfect Elezen, since that race is/was held down by its very awkward animations but fits an archetype that people would like to play. This is one of the few games where the elves look so much worse than the humans.

Agreed. Elezen leave much to be desired... Not just the animations, but body proportions, too. Would definitely love a body type like Omega M. And if they had at least one face option sort of like innocence (but with viera facial features of course), that would be so great. I don't mind if they are toned personally, as long as it's in a way similar to Omega M because he's toned and slim.

[Melichoir]

Well, I doubt Viera are going to be the race they're going to buckle in on and introduce a "soft" or "cute" version of it. You can already make Miqo'te with "cute" faces, and very short, and Midlander males can go a step further and set the muscle tone to zero. So it's not like you can't already do it and it's not like these options don't exist. As such, demands for it to be done on the basis of some perceived "need" aren't on a particularly strong footing.

I agree that its unlikely that theyll move out of hte norm. Chances are that yes, if they introduce male viera, they will be virtual carbon copies of Aura or Elezen, and offer nothing for design diversity. Its a shame frankly. That being said, you can achieve somewhat achieve a 'cute' character with Hyur or Miqote but this only occurs when you move to the extremes on the design side to get these results; It's not the baseline with variation from it. I mean this is like saying you can achieve a rugged character out of midlander Hyurs so therefore Highlanders or Aura isnt necessary.

If anything, they will do what they did with the females and perfect Elezen, since that race is/was held down by its very awkward animations but fits an archetype that people would like to play. This is one of the few games where the elves look so much worse than the humans. So I would not be too surprised if they do end up going with something like the OmegaM model, or in terms of art, something like the FrischeNq piece.

This is probably to some extent true with the omega M model, simply because they will be lazy about it. The awkward animations on Elezen though stem from the model being poorly proportioned and designed, not inherently the animations. The elezen model, if anything highlights another issue I've on my mind that Ill get to in a minute. But in regards to perfecting the female elezen model? No, the body build isnt there for that. They werent going for a tall elegant body shape, but more of an amazonian figure. It's closer to Roe if anything IMO.

And sorry but when people point to the likes of Alphinaud for "inspiration" in terms of what they mean by cute, it is veering on a more child-like design. Granted, he's a teenager, but a particularly young looking one. I've seen some art suggested here which is even more neotenous than that. There have been builds posted, such as FrischeNq's art, which are neither walls of muscle nor soft feminine boys but even these don't meet the requirements of some posters...

Ive already addressed there are some posters who definitely push towards the child spectrum purposefully but they dont represent the overall request. As for alphinaud as an example build, If were gonna argue that alphinaud's model is more closer to the child spectrum than adult spectrum, that makes all miqote and aura females closer to the children spectrum because they share many design characteristics. If anything, Alphinauds model is not so childlike as is more effeminate.

The vibe I expect of the males is what we've seen of the females: athletic and attractive. Not "cute" and not "soft".

I suspect yes, htis will be the case. They will be a carbon copy of Aura and Elezen to some extent. So yay, instead of horns, you get bunny ears. Real interesting there.

Now for a quick segway - The dev team needs to figure out what to do with old assets cause the game needs them fixed. Elezen is a broken mess because they reused character models from 1.0 - a version of hte game which had issues from a design standpoint. Instead of correcting those issues, they just said screw it and kept them. They would need to remake the models, because if you look at the concept art for elezen, whomever did the modeling for Elezen did not follow that concept art as teh proportions are completely different. Ive posted this before but to illustrate my point...



Keeping head proportion the same and adjusting the body, you can quickly see the in game model doesnt fit their concept art. Animation is downstream from the model, so that then gets janky. And rather htan fix model issues, they just say "Screw it" and keep it.

This is important cause it illustrates their overall thinking. If it requires effort, theyll say screw it and go with whatever is easiest - design or principles be damned. You see this play out with lalafells as well for other reasons. If YoshiP's argument about "children" male viera is in regards to dealing with the more...'questionable' part player base, then that would mean Lalafells are an issue too according to his own logic as well as the logic of many of the players. If his argument is principled , than he would have to address lalafells and redesign them to be less ambiguous in appearance regarding their age.

But none of this will happen because they ultimately take the least path resistance. Why design different character builds and shapes that are more unique when you can copy paste existing models and do minor adjustments and call it a day? So yeah, youre likely right. They wont be cute and soft, but theyll take Omega model or Aura model, tweak it slightly, slap on some bunny ears, and call it a day.

[SturmChurro]

I don't like that "fixed" one. It looks like a gremlin.

[Melichoir]

I don't like that "fixed" one. It looks like a gremlin.

Dont have to like it, but it is closer to the proportions of their own concept art which to me is easily more appealing than the ingame model.

[SturmChurro]

Dont have to like it, but it is closer to the proportions of their own concept art which to me is easily more appealing than the ingame model.

Nah.. I like long necks. We are good as is. The problem with Elezen is that they need new faces - they only have 2.

[Melichoir]

Nah.. I like long necks. We are good as is. The problem with Elezen is that they need new faces - they only have 2.

It's not even a giraffe issue. Legs, Torso, and arm proportions are also different.

Excluding that, yeah more faces is better, but I think thats an issue with most of the races. Whole character editor needs to be updated, but again, I am skeptical they will do anything.

[BastienWyngarden]

Now for a quick segway - The dev team needs to figure out what to do with old assets cause the game needs them fixed.

This may be a bit pedantic, and I mean no disrespect, but the word you’re looking for is “segue”, a “Segway” is a vehicle.