I'm not excited about the future patch at all. Just one dungeon?

[linay]

Again, no one has even once asked for Mythic+, only a system that can accomplish something "like" what Mythic+ did. That is an incredibly "broad set" of options by which to expand midcore content, a frequently requested "improvement".

Progressive likewise does not mean limitless. It just means that you can start into it sooner and finish it later with finer increments of success, both more accessible and longer-lasting. It's the difference between a piece of content seeming directed solely at one group of players or another or challenging players to get as far as they can, pushing their own limits.

Well if you can clarify what you mean, then I can reserve judgment.

Actually, let me just clarify what I don't like about Mythic+

1. Timed run, especially with WoW's dungeon layout. If it's with FFXIV's current dungeon layout, it might be better (but I still dislike timed run in general), but I don't want the dungeon layout to change to something I may not like due to a Mythic+ system.
2. Progression (including negative progression) based on the timer, not just on completing the dungeon. (This is different from enrage mechanics that are intended to not make you waste time on a fight by pure brute force because you can still complete the dungeon even if you didn't beat the time.)
3. No lockouts combined with WoW's gearing system. If it were to fit FFXIV's system, like giving tomestone which is capped, then it might be better (but I still don't like the time issue in general). You can choose to continue doing it, but not because of gearing.

This one is minor:
4. Some of the affixes are silly, but that's just mechanics, and I've enjoyed FFXIV's mechanics so far.

Our dungeons are already identical to Mythic+ inspired dungeons except in that XIV's are less creative in their variety of pull sizes and diversity of mobs (via variety in mob strength and the strength of their skills and effects). We're already working from a far, far more constrained base.

If our dungeons were all alike to 1.x's Cutter's Cry, complete with the party being split up at certain points or having to navigate the shifting sand wormholes, that would be an issue. But we never had a dungeon that would uniquely make just a few jobs far stronger than they should be except perhaps the few dungeons where a particular immunity (usually Hallowed Ground, unless a boss is incredibly deadly, in which case the other HG) is perfectly timed to the benefits of speedruns.

Designing for multiple difficulties has only two concerns:

1. Making sure difficulty scales well by not using fixed damage mechanics (e.g. the same %HP regardless of difficulty) or letting issues slide like auto-attacks hitting at the same time as tankbusters (which might just randomly and unavoidably one-shot a tank at higher difficulties) and
2. Making sure no jobs are obligatory for the dungeon's completion or give a huge lead in speed over other compositions.

Those aren't huge constraints and would make no difference to our current dungeon designs. Our dungeons would have to actually be creative -- immensely so -- before it could have any impact on us.

Comparing the dungeons I run in Stormblood and Shadowbringers to those I ran in Legion, and especially BfA, I would disagree that they're identical. The big difference is that you still cannot avoid enemies and bosses in FFXIV's current dungeons. You have to clear everything (which actually would make Mythic+ more palatable if that were the case, just a bit).

[Omymy]

Well if you can clarify what you mean, then I can reserve judgment.

Actually, let me just clarify what I don't like about Mythic+

1. Timed run, especially with WoW's dungeon layout. If it's with FFXIV's current dungeon layout, it might be better (but I still dislike timed run in general), but I don't want the dungeon layout to change to something I may not like due to a Mythic+ system.
2. Progression (including negative progression) based on the timer, not just on completing the dungeon. (This is different from enrage mechanics that are intended to not make you waste time on a fight by pure brute force because you can still complete the dungeon even if you didn't beat the time.)
3. No lockouts combined with WoW's gearing system. If it were to fit FFXIV's system, like giving tomestone which is capped, then it might be better (but I still don't like the time issue in general). You can choose to continue doing it, but not because of gearing.

This one is minor:
4. Some of the affixes are silly, but that's just mechanics, and I've enjoyed FFXIV's mechanics so far.

Comparing the dungeons I run in Stormblood and Shadowbringers to those I ran in Legion, and especially BfA, I would disagree that they're identical. The big difference is that you still cannot avoid enemies and bosses in FFXIV's current dungeons. You have to clear everything (which actually would make Mythic+ more palatable if that were the case, just a bit).

FFXIV dungeons are just wall to wall, enemies without mechanics (you event need to apply CCs). What are you talking about.

Even the bosses are a joke.

[linay]

FFXIV dungeons are just wall to wall, enemies without mechanics (you event need to apply CCs). What are you talking about.

Even the bosses are a joke.

I didn't say anything about the difficulty of the enemies, so what's your point?

[Shurrikhan]

I didn't say anything about the difficulty of the enemies, so what's your point?

I can't fully guess at it at this point. If I had to, I'd suppose it was meant in reference to the difference you mentioned between XIV and WoW dungeons and the suggestion that singular paths in which you're forced to kill everything would make Mythic+-like systems more palatable?

I'd guess then the point would be that having fewer choices or no systems other than "full pull, AoE spam, full pull, AoE spam, boss; repeat" would make such content less palatable, rather than more. Since XIV trash is already, I'd presume, "a joke", requiring that all enemies must be killed would reduce player agency and the number of available stratagems, making trash feel less involved. That might be acceptable if we had engaging bosses to look forward to, and the mob pulls prior were just there for aesthetic or mechanical build-up rather than to be fun in their own right, but our bosses aren't good enough to warrant streamlining what could otherwise be decent content in its own right (engaging mob pulls, in the place of just "trash") even if they were somehow in conflict in how they engage dungeon-runners.

But, I'm probably projecting.

@Omymy

Could you make your connective steps a little clearer or be more explicit with what you've so far left to implication?

[linay]

I can't fully guess at it at this point. If I had to, I'd suppose it was meant in reference to the difference you mentioned between XIV and WoW dungeons and the suggestion that singular paths in which you're forced to kill everything would make Mythic+-like systems more palatable?

I'd guess then the point would be that having fewer choices or no systems other than "full pull, AoE spam, full pull, AoE spam, boss; repeat" would make such content less palatable, rather than more. Since XIV trash is already, I'd presume, "a joke", requiring that all enemies must be killed would reduce player agency and the number of available stratagems, making trash feel less involved. That might be acceptable if we had engaging bosses to look forward to, and the mob pulls prior were just there for aesthetic or mechanical build-up rather than to be fun in their own right, but our bosses aren't good enough to warrant streamlining what could otherwise be decent content in its own right (engaging mob pulls, in the place of just "trash") even if they were somehow in conflict in how they engage dungeon-runners.

But, I'm probably projecting.

@Omymy

Could you make your connective steps a little clearer or be more explicit with what you've so far left to implication?

Well, the trash are a "joke" in the context of a normal FFXIV dungeon. I would assume that would not be the case in a system that is supposed to provide some challenge, at least for midcore level if not higher, so I don't think the state of normal dungeon difficulty is relevant.

[Shurrikhan]

Well if you can clarify what you mean, then I can reserve judgment.

Actually, let me just clarify what I don't like about Mythic+

1. Timed run, especially with WoW's dungeon layout. If it's with FFXIV's current dungeon layout, it might be better (but I still dislike timed run in general), but I don't want the dungeon layout to change to something I may not like due to a Mythic+ system.
2. Progression (including negative progression) based on the timer, not just on completing the dungeon. (This is different from enrage mechanics that are intended to not make you waste time on a fight by pure brute force because you can still complete the dungeon even if you didn't beat the time.)
3. No lockouts combined with WoW's gearing system. If it were to fit FFXIV's system, like giving tomestone which is capped, then it might be better (but I still don't like the time issue in general). You can choose to continue doing it, but not because of gearing.

This one is minor:
4. Some of the affixes are silly, but that's just mechanics, and I've enjoyed FFXIV's mechanics so far.

There, thank you. That I can completely work with!

Personally, I'm on the same side in regards to these issues. (I just don't think they're part and parcel of Mythic+ so much as just some of the little decisions that could have gone any other way.) That said, their removal would be... complicated.

At present, timers enforce a "damage meta", so to speak. But, the complete removal of timers would likely enforce the opposite, e.g. a PLD, DRK/WAR, WHM/SCH, and RDM, or the like.

Let's go back to the earlier condition for progressive difficulty design, "Making sure no jobs are obligatory for the dungeon's completion or give a huge lead in speed over other compositions." Now, because XIV more easily allows for multi-leveling than does WoW (or, will until WoW's next expansion, where that will likely flip on its head), and because XIV jobs have fewer distinct advantages than their WoW spec counterparts, we don't actually have to be as worried about the first part -- the unique toolkits just aren't really there to abuse -- the second part is still a concern.

So give these opposite extremes a simple label. On the rush-rush-rush side of design, we have the "damage meta". For virtually all other whole-dungeon constraints, or whenever there is no reason to rush (which would also require that the dungeon is not spammable, for better or worse), the "turtle meta" takes the fore. We want to allow for all jobs to see play, which means we don't want either meta to dominate, right?

Now, I'd be fine with progressive-difficulty dungeons not being spammable. Maw of Souls spam was wretched. I'd rather play a key until I fail and then either stop there, my streak ended for now, or a reroll into a lower difficulty in a new dungeon with few if any rewards until I'm back up to where I was (so I'd only try progging again if I felt sure I could get further this time). So, that takes one stone out from under the damage meta, at the mere cost of not being able to use this new content mode as much as we want (and therefore tiring of it early on or making it a means of most-efficient currency acquisition than something to do for fun -- which, again, I'd be glad to avoid).

But, there still has to be something within the dungeon run itself that makes time an issue, or else we're going to force "turtle comp" except where players badly overpower the difficulty setting they're at, which we'd ideally want to keep at only a brief time (i.e. we'd rather maximize the time players spend at difficulties appropriate for themselves, only going out of their favored zone when helping friends or being helped by them). I, too, dislike the timer making the dungeon feel a little overly... "gameified", which tends to sap some of its uniqueness.

If either WoW or XIV had particularly creative dungeons, I might rather see those timers as opportunities given throughout a sprawling dungeon, like being able to intercept a boss before he's gotten into his mech by either rushing to him or preventing alarms from going off, both things that would favor "damage meta", which I'd then balance out with things that favor a "turtle meta" or a balance of the two in other (likely later) parts of the dungeon. The "timers" would still exist, but they'd feel more natural -- part of the dungeon itself rather than just trying to beat a clock.

Obviously, I see how we handle timers (and thus dominant metas) as the biggest challenge in how XIV can allow for progressive-difficulty dungeons, but that's not to say that in testing more organic means of introducing something like them into XIV (e.g. starting from a concept like elements, materia, cards, or whatnot, and seeing how far they can take us) we might stumble into solutions for both that and the more minor things (like some of WoW's affixes not being particularly fun, even if they certainly change how the dungeon is played).

Comparing the dungeons I run in Stormblood and Shadowbringers to those I ran in Legion, and especially BfA, I would disagree that they're identical. The big difference is that you still cannot avoid enemies and bosses in FFXIV's current dungeons. You have to clear everything (which actually would make Mythic+ more palatable if that were the case, just a bit).

Merely an 'fyi': WoW dungeons give more freedom in what you pull, since they have more mob packs, more CC, greater power in your CDs, larger zones, and far more paths, but they still require that you pull a lot. Along with all the bosses, there's a meter's worth of requirement for mobs killed, so you can't actually skip in Mythic+ what all you could skip at normal difficulty.

[MsQi]

Merely an 'fyi': WoW dungeons give more freedom in what you pull, since they have more mob packs, more CC, greater power in your CDs, larger zones, and far more paths, but they still require that you pull a lot. Along with all the bosses, there's a meter's worth of requirement for mobs killed, so you can't actually skip in Mythic+ what all you could skip at normal difficulty.

Do they? Last I played seriously during Mists most dungeons and raids were very linear. Have they gone back to the Vanilla style? Of course FFXIV has never had a BRD or Sunken Temple (original).

[Vahlnir]

Do they? Last I played seriously during Mists most dungeons and raids were very linear. Have they gone back to the Vanilla style? Of course FFXIV has never had a BRD or Sunken Temple (original).

They're still pretty linear with very, very few exceptions. This is more of a Classic WoW thing now which is a 15 year old game.

[linay]

…

Sorry to have to cut your text.

Honestly, I think the different affixes could've lessened the issue on compositions/meta if you make it like deep dungeon where you cannot change job as you progress (which would also involve some kind of "end" to the progression, at least in terms of reward structure if not difficulty level). Then you'll have to be content with the fact that your chosen job may not be the best all the way through as affixes are changed/added/removed/etc during progression. They could also force you to be in the same party all the way through, again like deep dungeon.

Also, even without timer, most people would run any dungeon as fast as they can anyway, so I don't think that has to be a feature. If anything, why not limit the time you can spend on a dungeon, like an actual enrage? I would rather have that than a timer.

Again, though, if people can articulate what it is they actually want, it would be more beneficial, I think. Just saying Mythic+ for me runs the risk of them just implementing Mythic+ as is and only changing the bare minimum to fit FFXIV. That is not something I would ever want, so I don't want that term to be used as a catch-all term, even if that's the only thing people can think of (or maybe especially because that's the only thing people can think of).

Merely an 'fyi': WoW dungeons give more freedom in what you pull, since they have more mob packs, more CC, greater power in your CDs, larger zones, and far more paths, but they still require that you pull a lot. Along with all the bosses, there's a meter's worth of requirement for mobs killed, so you can't actually skip in Mythic+ what all you could skip at normal difficulty.

Yes, but that goes back to my earlier point about being affected even if I don't engage with the system. Unless it was its own system, whatever they do to design dungeon for Mythic+-like system would trickle down to regular dungeons. And so things that may not be a problem or has a purpose in a Mythic+ setting may suddenly become an inconvenience or even a problem in a regular dungeon run.

[Shurrikhan]

Foremost issues first:

Yes, but that goes back to my earlier point about being affected even if I don't engage with the system. Unless it was its own system, whatever they do to design dungeon for Mythic+-like system would trickle down to regular dungeons. And so things that may not be a problem or has a purpose in a Mythic+ setting may suddenly become an inconvenience or even a problem in a regular dungeon run.

Then, what are we willing to see in regular dungeons?

I don't just not fear CC, kiting, or split paths, for instance; I want to see those things again.

If anything, why not limit the time you can spend on a dungeon, like an actual enrage? I would rather have that than a timer.

Though early completions will provide bonus chests, the main purpose of the timer (as becomes obvious at higher difficulties) IS an enrage. You get done in those 60 minutes or so (some dungeons have slightly more or less time based on average and theoretical completion times when accounting for risk, rather than standardizing dungeon designs), or you fail. That's an enrage.

Also, even without timer, most people would run any dungeon as fast as they can anyway, so I don't think that has to be a feature.

That depends entirely on the difficulty. When dungeons lack for difficulty, they also tend to lack for engagement along with lacking for risk, making people want doubly to speed-run them, and therefore favoring high nominal risk (still low actual risk) for far high rewards. But when dungeons are honestly challenging, and other mechanics (even something as simple as running back) punish deaths, turtle comps are doubly desirable if additional damage does not somehow likewise avert risk. That latter part requires either that they play a short-term part in survival (such as through stagger systems and dps checks via especially dangerous encounters or mobs therein), a long-term part in survival (such as vs. enrage or meeting pace-based opportunity checks or the like), or a combination of both. As WoW had no stagger system and such dps checks would tend to favor, say, classes with bursty single-target damage far more than high sustained damage, they felt timers were necessary to maintain compositional balance and have it feel appropriate (which would still be an issue even if they forced their usual numbers of each role).

I think WoW sided with having a timer that was excessive until very high difficulty in order to give people multiple chances on whatever pulls or bosses would be most difficult to them, i.e. to provide learning opportunities and some lenience. Rather than providing a "one size fits all" tighter constraint from the start, they created a more lenient window and then a couple bonus windows to shoot for, albeit with considerably heightened difficulty. One could therefore turtle to more reliably succeed, but would then lose out on bonuses, the bulk of which would be progression itself (increasing key by 2 ranks to more quickly climb through difficulties that are apparently beneath one's party).

In a lot of ways, that timer still peeves me, as there's some combination of how it and the pulls themselves work, or even just how tanking and support works in that game that makes Mythic+ prior to the highest difficulties feel more... plain than they should, similar to but not quite as badly as XIV's dungeons end up feeling plain through constant speedrunning. But I'm not sure yet how to design a good alternative to that. I'm thinking through some organic solutions for now.

One of those spitball solutions involves player choice in what kind of challenge they face. For instance, one might choose (alike to an affix, but... chosen) a Trial of Wind as to be more greatly challenged in regards to pacing, while also reshaping the dungeon incidentally (through some subtle but effective added mechanics) to also improve that speedrunning experience. It's a work in progress, but I'll share it if/when it seems to have any merit.

Well, the trash are a "joke" in the context of a normal FFXIV dungeon. I would assume that would not be the case in a system that is supposed to provide some challenge, at least for midcore level if not higher, so I don't think the state of normal dungeon difficulty is relevant.

Right, but you'd still need to develop undermechanics ahead of time. You can't expect CC and other factors of interest in progressive difficulty ("Mythic+") settings after you've already removed it from everyone's kits or made all mobs immune to it. You'd have to first "un-prune" some toolkits and "un-waste" some of those skills' effects. At which point, design would beg the question, "Why isn't this being used in Normal, too?"

For my own part, I want to see that stuff used in normal modes as well. I'd like even normal modes to have a bit more challenge so that we can see some unique impact from our kits and have more than just a single competitive strategy. But what about you? You haven't yet given me enough details to even guess from.