I'm not excited about the future patch at all. Just one dungeon?

[ForteNightshade]

A more challenging dungeon doesn't have to be in the form of Mythic+ system.

As for content longevity, that depends on each player, as I have no issue finding enough things to do that I enjoy in FFXIV to keep a subscription going throughout the expansion.

Shurrikhan summarized this already but Mythic+ is simply the catch-all term because it's easy enough to point to. They don't need to copy WoW entirely. Just bring the idea over and innovate. While it's nice to have casual content, nearly 90% of the game could be classified under that category in Shadowbringers. It'd be nice to have a little more variety in the midcore range.

People would still hate Eureka regardless, it was designed to waste your time with monotonous tasks.

Some undoubtedly would, however Eureka did have its popularity from Pyros onward. Had the Logos Actions come earlier and they built off the feedback from them, I think Eureka would have been fairly okay. By no means great content but certainly better than what we got.

[linay]

It's not that "we need Mythic+" so much as just "we could use more midcore content, preferably in a way that has low periodic development costs, and prefereably in a way that makes it feel like we almost always have something to do worth doing even if we don't like crafting/gathering/omnileveling".[/INDENT][/INDENT]

Sure, and I'm not against having more midcore content, just not Mythic+ specifically.

Shurrikhan summarized this already but Mythic+ is simply the catch-all term because it's easy enough to point to. They don't need to copy WoW entirely. Just bring the idea over and innovate.

I don't want them to innovate over Mythic+. Innovate over some different form of content without it being a derivative of Mythic+.

[Shurrikhan]

Sure, and I'm not against having more midcore content, just not Mythic+ specifically.

If you can think of another solution as cost-effective as literally just turning casual content into difficulties of the players' choice, such that one can progressively challenge themselves through the whole, fluid span of upper casual, midcore, and into top-tier content, then by all means we can work from that instead. For myself and clearly many others here, that's the only example of stupidly cost-effective design for that purpose we've yet seen in an MMO.

Now, we could start first and foremost from Necrologos pages or TT cards or elemental crystals or marks of the zodiac or materia or whatever else and flesh that source out until it reaches an engaging and cost-efficient solution applicable to providing midcore content, but that source-to-result idea is just going to require far, far more detail to even bring to a point others can discuss than backward-facing or big-picture design as can be easily summed up by notable (almost meme-worthy) examples like "Mythic+". That's why you see it so often, especially from players who feel like XIV's gameplay development most lacks a sufficient focus on the big picture.

I'm right alongside you in detesting game elements translated directly from one game to another. But backward-facing design is probably our best framework for discussion for where we are now. We can find the best way to get to what we want after we know what it is we want.

[linay]

If you can think of another solution as cost-effective as literally just turning casual content into difficulties of the players' choice, such that one can progressively challenge themselves through the whole, fluid span of upper casual, midcore, and into top-tier content, then by all means we can work from that instead. For myself and clearly many others here, that's the only example of stupidly cost-effective design for that purpose we've yet seen in an MMO.

Now, we could start first and foremost from Necrologos pages or TT cards or elemental crystals or marks of the zodiac or materia or whatever else and flesh that source out until it reaches an engaging and cost-efficient solution applicable to providing midcore content, but that source-to-result idea is just going to require far, far more detail to even bring to a point others can discuss than backward-facing or big-picture design as can be easily summed up by notable (almost meme-worthy) examples like "Mythic+". That's why you see it so often, especially from players who feel like XIV's gameplay development most lacks a sufficient focus on the big picture.

I'm right alongside you in detesting game elements translated directly from one game to another. But backward-facing design is probably our best framework for discussion for where we are now. We can find the best way to get to what we want after we know what it is we want.

It's hard for me to discuss ideas as I'm very much content with what we have, so I'm not really looking for something else. In that sense, I'd rather leave it to the dev to "surprise and delight" with something new if and when they can, and then I'll decide once I get to know more about it.

The only thing I can address for now are things that I already know I don't want, like Mythic+.

[ForteNightshade]

It's hard for me to discuss ideas as I'm very much content with what we have, so I'm not really looking for something else. In that sense, I'd rather leave it to the dev to "surprise and delight" with something new if and when they can, and then I'll decide once I get to know more about it.

The only thing I can address for now are things that I already know I don't want, like Mythic+.

Then I'll borrow the usually tossed around line, "Don't partake in it then."

If you're content with the current amount of content, why does it matter if they go with Mythic+ inspired dungeons? You'll still have the content you prefer while others will have something they enjoy.

[linay]

Then I'll borrow the usually tossed around line, "Don't partake in it then."

If you're content with the current amount of content, why does it matter if they go with Mythic+ inspired dungeons? You'll still have the content you prefer while others will have something they enjoy.

I already addressed this. It can affect dungeon design, reward structure, job design/balance, etc. Even if I don't partake in the actual content, I can still be affected by it.

If you really just want to run that type of content, make it like deep dungeon (or the masked carnival), one dungeon per expansion separated from and doesn't affect other content and make it job agnostic so it doesn't affect job design outside of it with its own reward structure or fitting the current structure. In fact, make it so that limited jobs like BLU can join in on the "fun" too.

[SturmChurro]

If you really just want to run that type of content, make it like deep dungeon (or the masked carnival), one dungeon per expansion separated from and doesn't affect other content and make it job agnostic so it doesn't affect job design outside of it with its own reward structure or fitting the current structure. In fact, make it so that limited jobs like BLU can join in on the "fun" too.

I think BLU should be deleted from the game.

[Shurrikhan]

I already addressed this. It can affect dungeon design, reward structure, job design/balance, etc. Even if I don't partake in the actual content, I can still be affected by it.

Our dungeons are already identical to Mythic+ inspired dungeons except in that XIV's are less creative in their variety of pull sizes and diversity of mobs (via variety in mob strength and the strength of their skills and effects). We're already working from a far, far more constrained base.

If our dungeons were all alike to 1.x's Cutter's Cry, complete with the party being split up at certain points or having to navigate the shifting sand wormholes, that would be an issue. But we never had a dungeon that would uniquely make just a few jobs far stronger than they should be except perhaps the few dungeons where a particular immunity (usually Hallowed Ground, unless a boss is incredibly deadly, in which case the other HG) is perfectly timed to the benefits of speedruns.

Designing for multiple difficulties has only two concerns:

1. Making sure difficulty scales well by not using fixed damage mechanics (e.g. the same %HP regardless of difficulty) or letting issues slide like auto-attacks hitting at the same time as tankbusters (which might just randomly and unavoidably one-shot a tank at higher difficulties) and
2. Making sure no jobs are obligatory for the dungeon's completion or give a huge lead in speed over other compositions.

Those aren't huge constraints and would make no difference to our current dungeon designs. Our dungeons would have to actually be creative -- immensely so -- before it could have any impact on us.