Changes that war need?

[Izsha]

Eye is unfun because of its interaction with the new aoe combo. THAT needs to be fixed.

It's just awkard right now having to aoe combo, then single target combo for eye, then go back to aoe maintain buff.

Thats all there is to it. Just make mythril tempest apply eye and everything is fine.

That didn't seem to be a problem anyone cared about for the last 5 years. It's always been ST combo>aoe>repeat which is now ST combo>aoe>aoe>aoe>aoe(etc). And now it needs to just he Aoe(forever)?

I mean war is already absurdly simple to play. Now we want to hit 2 buttons for entire dungeons? Can we not remove what few buttons we have left on this stupidly dumbed down job?

Edit:
I should note, with all this talk about eye being 'annoying', the solution should not be removing it, dumbing it down, etc. If you dont like how it works, think about how it could be made more INTERESTING of a mechanic. Just removing it, extending duration, making it apply on maim, etc are all just simplifying what is (arguably) the simplist job in the game. Just pairing down things you dint like leaves a hollowed out job. If you dont like how eye works, then think about how to make it fun and interesting instead of just minimizing or outright removing it. War is to 1 dimensional to take any more culling because you 'dont like hitting this button'.

[Satarn]

That didn't seem to be a problem anyone cared about for the last 5 years. It's always been ST combo>aoe>repeat which is now ST combo>aoe>aoe>aoe>aoe(etc). And now it needs to just he Aoe(forever)?

Yeah, I don't understand how is that a problem either - you just have to use Eye combo once per pull(once tops, because you can manage to just not drop the buff between pulls in some cases). Neither what's so bad about having to think if you'll need to reapply Eye before going into IR - oh no, you need to think about a single gorramn thing, what a tragedy. Those "annoyances" are often needed, because if there's no limitations then there's no mechanics and the job becomes boring(or more boring in this case, because WAR has already lost enough).
Look at DRK - all your MP rates are by design timed so everything will naturally line up to be optimal without a thought required, Darkside is impossible to drop, you don't have any extra combo to worry about - and as result the job is just a mess of pretend-mechanics.

Making WAR actually fun to play - aka more engaging - would likely require devs to admit that reworking IR was a stupid mistake and roll that shit back. Of course things would need adjustments in order to re implement the old system without breaking the SHB skills. How it could work imo:

- remove Berserk mastery completely
- revert Berserk effect to "Increases physical damage dealt by 30%. Duration: 20s, Cooldown: 60s."
- revert Inner Release effect to "Reduces the costs of Beast Gauge actions by half. Duration: 20s, Cooldown:120s."
- change the effect of Nascent Chaos trait to "Grants a stack of Nascent Chaos upon landing Fell Cleave, or Decimate on most targets. Once Nascent Chaos reaches 5 stacks, it becomes Raging Chaos, upgrading Decimate to Chaotic Cyclone. Upon reaching level 80, Raging Chaos will also upgrade Fell Cleave to Inner Chaos."
- bring back Butcher's Block as a third combo finisher with higher potency than Path/Eye, but only 10 gauge per hit, to allow for finer gauge management
- remove auto directcrits from Inner Chaos and Chaotic Cyclone
- change Nascent Flash effect to "Grants Nascent Flash to self, absorbing 200% of damage dealt as HP. Also grants target party member Nascent Glint, restoring HP equaling 50% of that recovered by Nascent Flash while also reducing damage taken by 10%. Duration: 6s. Shares a recast timer with Raw Intuition." Basically make it usable on self like Dragon Sight for qol and buff the healing as you could no longer rely on auto directcrit spam for massive healing.

Of course some potencies would likely need buffs due to removal of directcrits and perhaps 200/100% healing on NF is a bit of an overkill, so that could use tuning as well(just as long as it's still as good at healing as it is right now).

[Jokersoal]

Yeah, I don't understand how is that a problem either - you just have to use Eye combo once per pull(once tops, because you can manage to just not drop the buff between pulls in some cases). Neither what's so bad about having to think if you'll need to reapply Eye before going into IR - oh no, you need to think about a single gorramn thing, what a tragedy. Those "annoyances" are often needed, because if there's no limitations then there's no mechanics and the job becomes boring(or more boring in this case, because WAR has already lost enough).
Look at DRK - all your MP rates are by design timed so everything will naturally line up to be optimal without a thought required, Darkside is impossible to drop, you don't have any extra combo to worry about - and as result the job is just a mess of pretend-mechanics.

Making WAR actually fun to play - aka more engaging - would likely require devs to admit that reworking IR was a stupid mistake and roll that shit back. Of course things would need adjustments in order to re implement the old system without breaking the SHB skills. How it could work imo:

- remove Berserk mastery completely
- revert Berserk effect to "Increases physical damage dealt by 30%. Duration: 20s, Cooldown: 60s."
- revert Inner Release effect to "Reduces the costs of Beast Gauge actions by half. Duration: 20s, Cooldown:120s."
- change the effect of Nascent Chaos trait to "Grants a stack of Nascent Chaos upon landing Fell Cleave, or Decimate on most targets. Once Nascent Chaos reaches 5 stacks, it becomes Raging Chaos, upgrading Decimate to Chaotic Cyclone. Upon reaching level 80, Raging Chaos will also upgrade Fell Cleave to Inner Chaos."
- bring back Butcher's Block as a third combo finisher with higher potency than Path/Eye, but only 10 gauge per hit, to allow for finer gauge management
- remove auto directcrits from Inner Chaos and Chaotic Cyclone
- change Nascent Flash effect to "Grants Nascent Flash to self, absorbing 200% of damage dealt as HP. Also grants target party member Nascent Glint, restoring HP equaling 50% of that recovered by Nascent Flash while also reducing damage taken by 10%. Duration: 6s. Shares a recast timer with Raw Intuition." Basically make it usable on self like Dragon Sight for qol and buff the healing as you could no longer rely on auto directcrit spam for massive healing.

Of course some potencies would likely need buffs due to removal of directcrits and perhaps 200/100% healing on NF is a bit of an overkill, so that could use tuning as well(just as long as it's still as good at healing as it is right now).

I didn't imagine the topic about mythril tempest could go this far since it would only have an "impact" on casual content. It is just a sort of " If I can have this why not to directly spam aoes like the other tanks but It's not really important so...".
Regarding the revert you proposed, I like it

[NyneSwordz]

It wasnt a problem because we never had an aoe combo that we used in place of single target.

Thats why it was never a problem.

Not sure why thats hard to grasp.

For the last 5 years all we ever did was overpower a couple times then single target combo.

Now we have an aoe combo that needs to be done over and over until pack dies.

Thats the difference.

Think of it this way, what if eye buff was on mythril tempest instead of storms eye.

Would you think it was "fine" if you had to, in a raid, hit the boss with mythril before you can do your single target combo?

Not sure why this is hard to grasp. If its fine to you, that is okay, but at least acknowledge that theres a valid argument for why some people feel it is clunky.

[NyneSwordz]

Also, we NEVER overpowered spam until a pack dies in a dungeon ever. At least i didn't.

Was it ever really efficient to spam overpower over and over and lose eye and not generate any rage?

@izsha not sure why you think our aoe game is the same pre and post shb.

[NyneSwordz]

Nevermind re read ur post.

Yes, it needs to be aoe forever.

Whats the alternative?

Aoe>st>aoe>aoe>aoe?

Not sure having one st lodged in their oer pull makes the class any more engaging or fun.

[Izsha]

What does having 2 aoe buttons instead of 1 matter for this exactly?

Old scenario. Use 3gcds on eye. Spam aoe action for 24 seconds.

Current scenario. Use 3gcds on eye. Spam aoe action(s) forever. NEVER APPLY EYE AGAIN while aoeing.

I see no connection between a 3gcd ramp up before aoe then compared to now. 3gcds before you start your 'real' damage is the same in both cases. What you do after your 3gcd ramp is spam aoe damage. The fact that this is now 2 buttons instead of one doesnt do anything to ramp.

What HAS changed is you no longer need to reapply eye or risk it dropping during aoe. What has changed is you gain gauge from aoe.

The 3gcd ramp up is exactly that. A ramp that war has always had. What does a 2nd aoe button have to do with that? Why does a 2nd aoe button make the ramp somehow worse than it's always been exactly? I dont know of any secret game rule that says if you have more buttons you must reduce ramp time because 'reasons'.

You say conflicting things. It wasnt a problem for 5 years at the same time it is a problem now.

"For the last 5 years all we ever did was overpower a couple times then single target combo.*

Now we have an aoe combo that needs to be done over and over until pack dies.*

Thats the difference.*"

What's the difference? Before we had to ramp then aoe. Now we have to ramp then aoe. You state an unjustified assumption that you havent clarified very well that your whole post hangs on. (Below)

"It wasnt a problem because we never had an aoe combo that we used in place of single target".

That is the statement your post is based on but theres no justification for this statement. So what that it's a combo? Your follow up about what if you had to tempest on ST doesnt make sense either because that's what weve been doing for aoe for 5 years (st ramp on aoe) which you stated wasnt a problem until now. If the issue is using both ST and AOE actions together is bad, then it's been bad for 5 years but no one cared. If there isnt a problem.mixing ST and AOE actions together then it's not a problem now. It doesnt make sense. We have been mixing both in our aoe rotation forever. That hasnt changed. So is it a problem, or isnt it? Rhetorical because no one thought it was a problem for years. So it isnt.

The only argument since this started I have seen that makes any sense is that war aoe damage is lower than other tanks and therefore the 3gcd ramp is to punishing. ie it was fine to have the ramp when war was aoe king but its trash now so it's unfair. To which the obvious answer is to just buff aoe until the original situation is true again. But I havent done a lot of analysis of tank aoe damage math to know if that assumption is even true (war lv 80 aoe sucks) as that is what the argument is based on. But your argument of "aoe is 2 buttons instead of 1 so we have to change everything" doesnt make a lot of sense.

[Satarn]

For the last 5 years all we ever did was overpower a couple times then single target combo.

Now we have an aoe combo that needs to be done over and over until pack dies.

Yea, that's the issue mate - it was just you.
WARs didn't single target on trash packs outside of putting up/refreshing Eye and Overpower spam otherwise + Steel Cyclone/Decimate when you had IR/Infuriate up and whenever you got some gauge from Eye combos. In fact it wasn't even worth to reapply Eye if the pack would die fast enough.

So as Izsha says - the combo difference is just replacing every other Overpower with Mithril Tempest and that you no longer have to go back to reapply Eye, so if anything it's less clunky/annoying than it used to be.

[Izsha]

Seems we posted about the same time.

There was a little math involved but generally, yeah you would put up eye then OP until it was time to reapply eye and then look at how many mobs were left, how high hp, etc and decide if it's worth to reapply or keep spamming OP.

As to having a ST lodged in isnt engaging or fun, I would counter that spamming 2 buttons (aoe combo) for most of a dungeon without any thought or awareness/items to track isnt engaging or fun. Of course these things are subjective for different people, but it's not as 1 sided as you make it sound.

The aoe game hasnt changed much. Things we do for aoe.

Shared things:
Infuriate/chaos(was SS). Same thing. Just hits harder.
Eye ramp.
Overpower
Ir decimate spam

New things:
Tempest replaces every 2nd Overpower
more Decimates from greater resource generation

Deleted things:
Maintain eye once up.

Defensive stuff has shuffled around, but pretty similar and unrelated to the topic at hand.

Not much has really changed. The biggest changes are once eye is up it stays up, and we generate much more gauge for decimates. I'm not sure why you feel war has had some major shift in how it does aoe.

Put another way, if you made overpower the avg damage of full tempest combo (2 OP= current 2gcd tempest combo) and gave it 10 rage on hit, war would play exactly as it always has except it would have more decimates. Put up eye, spam OP. The only difference is you put up eye and hit OP1 then OP2. The framework is the same. Ramp. Spam aoe action(s).

Edit:
Oh maybe thats what the disconnect is. If you have been using ST combos forever and just now starting to use the aoes since they are a combo, all this makes much more sense.

[Shurrikhan]

Also, we NEVER overpowered spam until a pack dies in a dungeon ever. At least i didn't.

...Why would you not? Most mob packs died before you'd run out of TP, given Deli-Equilibrium. Was you party just not... using CDs during its full pulls?