Red Mage is top tier - [job effectiveness = player skill]

[ReiMakoto]

Fair enough,

But also consider that you were talking about an "average" from FF Logs... so you have to account for the fact a lot of Red Mage DPS being submitted probably also includes a lot of RDMs who have to do exactly what I said.

So its just not really possible to take the DPS outputs from FFLogs with regards to Red Mage to be much different as they too would include a lot of Red Mages who split their time DPS, Healing, and Ressing.

Even at the top end not the average red mage is behind

[Silverquick]

Even at the top end not the average red mage is behind

What you would have to do to get an accurate average of RDMs DPS would be to remove all samples of RDMs who use a heal or Res...

Then take the average of those specifically to get an accurate DPS number from RDM.

And the pool is a little too small for that.

[SleepyNeko]

RDM is behind because SMN is too strong atm.

[Kabooa]

What you would have to do to get an accurate average of RDMs DPS would be to remove all samples of RDMs who use a heal or Res...

Then take the average of those specifically to get an accurate DPS number from RDM.

And the pool is a little too small for that.

Which is what you expect from 95-99th percentile. The Red mages who don't have to do that.

[Seku]

the problem with "a few percent" is if these few percent make you wipe do to enrage, or even a mechanic you wouldn't have seen because the boss would be death by now you now wasted 10-13 minutes hitting on a boss for nothing, and assuming the next try doesn't go better you may even have wasted an entire evening. more often than not it happens that you get this one 1% wipe and afterwards die for 2 hours in phase 2 cause people lack focus. its not that people care what others did after the boss drops (unless someone is playing truly abysmall) its "the stronger the group is, the more likely the boss actually is to drop dead.

I'd say that this would only apply to those that are actually world progression. The rest of the game probably don't have to be as concerned due to naturally getting gear over the following weeks.

Also no group has hit on the boss for nothing since Alexander. I don't believe there is any raid where a job is 100% out since the original Alexander raids when they first came out in Heavensward, but rather a majority of people just bandwagon to what other people say instead of coming up with creative ways to maximize other jobs DPS during a raid to clear it. Can't say that's wrong as human nature often times goes in the direction of least resistance.

[Lambdafish]

What you would have to do to get an accurate average of RDMs DPS would be to remove all samples of RDMs who use a heal or Res...

Then take the average of those specifically to get an accurate DPS number from RDM.

And the pool is a little too small for that.

If you are healing and rezzing as a RDM, you aren't even going to get a blue parse, let alone top parse, or even average. The pool is pretty big at 3000 parses over the past two weeks, which if you think that's too small, then it would actually lean away from your argument as those who would be healing and rezzing probably aren't using FFlogs.

The content is old, people have been farming it for months, people aren't dying to an extent that a RDM needs to help.

[StriderShinryu]

RDM is behind because SMN is too strong atm.

This is largely my take as well. I'm not saying that RDM couldn't use some tweaking, but if we're comparing Caster DPS right now then we're comparing a fairly balanced class with a pretty much broken OP one.

[BloodRubyXII]

This is largely my take as well. I'm not saying that RDM couldn't use some tweaking, but if we're comparing Caster DPS right now then we're comparing a fairly balanced class with a pretty much broken OP one.

That's a huge part of the problem. We're undertuned but on top of that, when we got buffed in the rebalancing patch, so did Summoner, and far more than we did. I also feel being this mechanically simple to play also holds us back, but that's me being really generous.

[Shurrikhan]

can't understand the wuzz Nin, Brd & Drg - were always part of the meta... now a dbl cast comp is as powerful everybody scream unbalance... its just shifting for once, so what's the deal? : /

The only thing that left double-caster behind were raid-buffs. SMN and BLM together were S-tier at the end of expansion, and RDM right alongside them in a pure-physical comp.

The issue? NIN helped everyone. MCH helped everyone, especially another Ranged. Bard helped everyone, especially another Ranged. DRG helped everyone, especially MCH and Bard. SMN helped only RDM and BLM at any real significance. RDM still helps only physical classes.

So if you wanted a fully synergetic comp, there were only three options: MNK/DRG/BRD/MCH, NIN/DRG/BRD/MCH, or MNK/NIN/DRG/SAM.

At least back when Foe Requiem only increased Magic damage, one could have run 3 casters and a Bard, Bard/DRG/SMN/BLM, or more often DRG/BRD/MCH/SMN at roughly equal coverage/synergy in raid buffs to the meta comp.

SB simply created only three optimal compositions in terms of its raid buffs, such that anything else competing wholly with them would have to be a result of individual job imbalances. That's not a community preference to remove Casters. That's just a result of what we were given.

[HyperiusUltima]

That's a huge part of the problem. We're undertuned but on top of that, when we got buffed in the rebalancing patch, so did Summoner, and far more than we did. I also feel being this mechanically simple to play also holds us back, but that's me being really generous.

Being mechanically simple does not mean that it should hold a job back on DPS. BLM is rather inanely simple due to what their requirements to operate are: Enochian, and not overcapping on Polyglot unless it's needed for a movement phase for Xenoglossy. Umbral Soul on top of that also helps BLM keep up Enochian and they have rather powerful DPS given they bring no utility to the party(like they're supposed to be with SAM).

RDM on the other hand in terms of skill ceiling is not just pressing Jolt and hoping for procs from Verthunder/Veraero; it's the only job that requires the comp to only have 1 Caster and has an odd timing for its buff that is offset from other raid buffs. Why? Because Embolden is only a decaying Magic Buff for RDM and Physical Buff for others. You aren't allowed to run a 2 Caster comp like BLM/SMN can just because of that, and on the high-end it matters a lot. If they want to make RDM stronger, SE has to do the following:

1) Remove Embolden's role-specific typing and make it a full-on non-decaying 10% damage buff and increase RDM's Potencies(even if they're known for band-aiding, they can at least do this to bring them closer and tone SMN down in terms of potency since patch 5.1 reminded me of 4.1's Broken SMN that they're doing every expansion now).
2) Increase Ranged Role's damage alongside it so we don't wind up with a full-on Caster Meta and have a Reverse HW.