I hate to, but I think I put down healing for now. Please make it engaging again, SE.

[MitsukiKimura]

Yes, they take feedback. So does SE.

Neither of those companies owe you an explanation.

And you don't have a right to tell people that they don't deserve one. Case closed

[LariaKirin]

This is a point needed to be adressed, as my fight for return to 3.0 sometimes loses context. I had a simple wish for 5.0 Scholar: Fun.

A bit more fleshed out: "More fun than I had in 3.0". How does one achieved this? Nobody knows, and in fear of driving this thread off it's rails on semantics will say ll I know I had great nuf in 3.0 so I knew SE was capable. Had a bit of it in 4.0 and have none in 5.0. I would've taken anything that was a busy, versatile or unorthodox, or all three, you know, like 3.0 SCH. And evolution of the job that maybe took away, but added more to make way for bold new ideas and playstyles keeping me busy all the way back to Sastasha and beyond dots and arcanist tools so they paled in comparison. The potential was unlimited and I was ready for SE to blow my mind. Instead they threw some wet cloth my way that had already stagnated when I learned Broil had gotten it's second upgrade.

Sometimes on the "stages of grief" I drop to "bargaining" to try and see it from SE's point of view, but there is nothing to see and instead memories of Selene, pet hotbar, Arcanist and Cleric stance float to the surface and Im straight back up at "Anger."

I've expressed my opinion on different aspects of 3.0 before, I'm just gonna say it for context: Cleric Stance was cool, dots were bloat.

As for why you're not having fun, is job design the only explanation?
You now have years of experience playing the job. How much of it is fatigue or nostalgia and how much of it is actual class design?

Is that a food analogy on a forum? Then lets go the whole way.

[...]

I've clarified in a later reply what the point of the analogy was. I don't know why you all get so hung up on expanding on this after I've already clarified in a later post that it's not an all-encompassing analogy.

I'm just going to assume you can't address the point, so you expand on irrelevant stuff - until someone explains to me why they are entitled to the explanation and reasoning behind design changes.

[MitsukiKimura]

I've expressed my opinion on different aspects of 3.0 before, I'm just gonna say it for context: Cleric Stance was cool, dots were bloat.

As for why you're not having fun, is job design the only explanation?
You now have years of experience playing the job. How much of it is fatigue or nostalgia and how much of it is actual class design?



I've clarified in a later reply what the point of the analogy was. I don't know why you all get so hung up on expanding on this after I've already clarified in a later post that it's not an all-encompassing analogy.

I'm just going to assume you can't address the point, so you expand on irrelevant stuff - until someone explains to me why they are entitled to the explanation and reasoning behind design changes.

People have already numerous times explained their reasons for wanting a reply. Yet you sit here and give the same poor linear response "You aren't entitled to an explanation" each and every time. You don't deserve any more reasoning or responses given regarding to your statement.

[Saefinn]

I've clarified in a later reply what the point of the analogy was. I don't know why you all get so hung up on expanding on this after I've already clarified in a later post that it's not an all-encompassing analogy.

I'm just going to assume you can't address the point, so you expand on irrelevant stuff - until someone explains to me why they are entitled to the explanation and reasoning behind design changes.

Cool, but I already addressed it. You make the false assumption that people feel they are /entitled/ to a reply, this is a strawman (at least, I don't recall seeing anybody saying they're entitled, certainly not in the post you were replying to). People /want/ a reply, and a reply would be the right thing to do. And I've detailed why it is a good idea for them to reply and lent my former experience working in handling customer complaints, especially when it comes to disgruntled customers, because ultimately that's what it is: customers disgruntled with a service and the forums is by which the means the complaint is issued. They of course don't /have/ to do anything. But I think it is a shame when they've done such a fantastic job with Shadowbringers and have been great for communicating and addressing many other issues/complaints. I by no means hold ill thought towards the dev team and genuinely think they take the job seriously and want to make the game as best they can with their resources (it's a damn big game with lots of different parts to be responsible for). It's just a shame that whilst they are good at communication, they're not showing that here, which can be a red flag. Because even if the dev team disagree with the complaints, they tend to say so, eg: 3.0 and 4.0 MCH issues.

Also, talking of flawed analogies, an earlier reply to me:

I don't know why you all choose to bring up so many flawed analogies. Your TP analogy fails because it's nothing like healing. Healing is single target, aoe, affected by mechanics, affected by other players and has much more severe consequences when you fail. TP management is completely individual.

And in the same post you did not address the points my analogy was used to illustrate so I had to make a follow up post to draw harder on those points. Points you did not address afterwards, or after I made follow up posts on the same points. Not that I am entitled to your response, but it's just interesting to see the shoe being on the other foot.

And, welcome aboard the poor analogy club.

[Crushnight]

SCH plays essentially the same as Stormblood SCH. All you're missing is an occasional Broil replacer and an on-cd Shadowflare. Having either or both of those does not solve the problem.

Your kidding right? Right?

In case your not, i'll go over what is so different about SB sch compared to ShB Sch (and there are way better Schs on this forum than me btw):

Healing;
-Critlo deployed, granted it was pretty busted with what it allowed to mitigate but certainly a loss on our healing front
-Physick getting further irrelevant they could've done something with it made it actually useful instead they decided to make changes which make it even worse
-Sacred soil being less desirable while Shadowflare was up due to cancellation between the two skils.

-Rest of healing kit relatively untouched

Pet(Yes it deserves its own section);
-Faster responsiveness that made Smns jealous of our better pet system
-Fey Caress(AoE esuna), silent dawn(on demand silence very useful in PotD/HoH), (please forgive me i forgotten the name) magic resistance, Fey Wind(minor speed up) removed
-Selene made a glorified glamour
-Embrace moved from on demand targeted to auto (basically from you heal this target to fairy looking at you like i do what i want fool)
-Loss of macroing fairy to skills
-Rouse removed so no more buffing the fairy
-Fairy abilities moved from pet ogcd to pet gcd

Dps;
-Loss of shadowflare thus no longer connected to sacred soil so decision making reduced
-Loss of Miasma and Miasma II, 2 different DoTs with different timers so less to manage, less decision making between Dps and heals
-Loss of Bane, no longer being able to spread DoTs has the opposite effect of getting to heal more now you are forced (if you want to DoT everything) to DoT individually forcing more gcds on dps than heals (or you know just AoW spam if group big enough)
-Addition of AoW, a up close player centred AoE with no additional effect but dmg

That is a lot that was taken away or made worse, The healing and pet stuff added in ShB are unnecessary in 99% of content (heck across all 3 healers this can be applied to), in HW the additions to the healing kit felt very useful and needed for the content being released, in SB again felt very useful and needed for content less so than in HW but their impact was very there, in ShB if you removed every single addition to the healing kits on all 3 healers you would be able to clear everything fine all the way up to TEA, the single piece of content where Recitation, Seraph, Neutral Sect, Intersection, Horoscope, Afflatus, Temperance feel like they are needed and were designed for. That to me makes me feel like the dev team(collectively not just the job designers) do not know what to do for healers, if they want to reduce button bloat take away ogcd heals because we have to many already so much so that they are invalidating gcd heals(again very poor design decisions).

As for your BLM changes, of course it will be bad. You're ignoring an entire role worth of responsibilities (healing) that the BLM does not have to care about. Ignoring the healing part of the healers seems to be a growing trend around here.

Yet i gave blm something new to care about non infinite mp, forcing Lucid dreaming useage on top of longer casts, it was also an example of changing a job drastically that would cause a noticable backlash ala Sch and Ast, it was not meant to be a 1 for 1 example you silly goose, if it had i would used Whm and you know what i will:

-All healing afflatus skills removed
-Glare now gives 1 stack of buds
-3 buds = 1 lily, you need to use the new skill bloom to convert which requires >50% of a target's hp to be restored to activate
-New skill sprout makes a party member as target needed for bloom
-Sprout only becomes available after using Cure III
-3 lilies needed to use Misery
-Misery buffed due to new requirement
-Tetragrammaton removed
-Benediction now has 10 min cd
-Cure, Cure II and Cure III traits removed
-Cure II cannot be cast without casting Cure and Cure III cannot be cast without casting Cure II, potency increase for all three
-Mp cost of Cure III reduced and no longer an AoE
-Assize range and dmg lowered significantly (5 yalms and 10 potency), mp refresh removed
-Freecast cd lowered to 1 min, duration lowered to 4s
-Holy losses stun effect
-Medica and Medica II potency increased
-Temperance no longer reduces dmg taken instead gives freedom to cast on the move, duration lasts 6s
-Asylum range increased to 100 yalms
-Raise mp cost reduced to 500 mp
-Swiftcast removed from cross role

Sounds fun right?, I'm sure most Whms would be happy and content with that right? can you stop trying to strawman and actually address the point of, if wide spread changes happen why are we not allowed to voice our opinion and ask for a response from SE? Acknowledgement goes a long way to soothe rising tempers even if it is not going to be favourable, Anger -> Disappointment is a lot faster when told earlier or do we need another male Viera fiasco(literally could've said locked to female only at Paris, yea anger would've happened regardless but would've been far less volatile due to keeping it hushed as long as they did) before you see it?

[Saefinn]

I guess to add, I wasn't exactly too hot on SB SCH anyway, but it still had enough to redeem it to stop it from ruining my enjoyment of it, hence I was not disgruntled and just hoped ShB would add more of what I liked about SCH, in a way it did and didn't at the same time and took away the part that kept me from losing my enjoyment of it.

But the abilities from SB I actually miss are: Bane, Fey Caress, Fey Wind, Miasma II, Miasma, Shadowflare, Silent Dusk. That's 7 abilities, 6 of which aren't related to healing, and 1 of which is niche. With the downtime that's grown bigger since HW, that has an impact going SB to ShB. If we had less downtime, it'd feel like less of a hit, but the game is designed in such a way that if we are doing well, then there's downtime for healers. But the game feels like it was designed so that healers would contribute as part of DPSing. This made sense to me and I liked it and it is appropriate because healer roles in FF titles aren't constantly healing anyway.

[MitsukiKimura]

I guess to add, I wasn't exactly too hot on SB SCH anyway, but it still had enough to redeem it to stop it from ruining my enjoyment of it, hence I was not disgruntled and just hoped ShB would add more of what I liked about SCH, in a way it did and didn't at the same time and took away the part that kept me from losing my enjoyment of it.

But the abilities from SB I actually miss are: Bane, Fey Caress, Fey Wind, Miasma II, Miasma, Shadowflare, Silent Dusk. That's 7 abilities, 6 of which aren't related to healing, and 1 of which is niche. With the downtime that's grown bigger since HW, that has an impact going SB to ShB. If we had less downtime, it'd feel like less of a hit, but the game is designed in such a way that if we are doing well, then there's downtime for healers. But the game feels like it was designed so that healers would contribute as part of DPSing. This made sense to me and I liked it and it is appropriate because healer roles in FF titles aren't constantly healing anyway.

What I miss most about AST from SB is my Time extender abilities with the different variety of card buffs. Tank needs defense? Bole. Low on MP? Ewer. Wanna go fast? Arrow. Etc. It felt good knowing you could deal with a situation like that. Drawing the right card you wanted felt rewarding. There's just no feeling of being rewarded when you draw cards. Draw one, toss it, rinse and repeat. I still have no idea if they ever plan to rework undraw or just continue to make it utterly useless.

[Connor]

I will say that I miss Selene’s support oriented abilities, especially Fey Wind.

It’s the same situation as with Bard and Dancer though; SE is like ‘well Astrologian can buff the party so Scholars can’t’.

But like, why not? It’s not like if Scholar still has Fey Wind everyone would be like ‘This is too much like Astrologian!’. I don’t really understand why the devs are so averse to a potential function overlap, especially when it’s between two jobs within the same role (which generally are going to be expected to do the same thing anyway at their core, like a healer doing healing and support).

In terms of the DPS abilities for Scholar I think if Shadow Flare returned I’d personally like if it was just the slow and maybe another effect like damage dealt debuff to enemies within in it. I worry that if it was a GCD that you’d be expected to forgo Sacred Soil entirely for more DPS uptime, since it’s not like Sacred Soil is our most valuable Aetherflow skill in the first place. I can take or leave whether we get more DoTs but my personal preference would be one or two low potency DoTs with debuff effects than a handful of just damage over time skills. And I mean, considering both the DoT based DPS jobs predominantly apply two DoTs with one ability (Tri-Disaster / Iron Jaws), it’d a bit weird for a healer to have even more DoTs than the actual DoT DPS, especially if they existed solely for damage.

I’ll be honest, the delay for Fairy abilities has never been an issue for me. I kinda like having to consider and plan using them so far in advance to when the effect is actually applied. That said, I get why so many people dislike it, especially because ghosting can occur often. Personally I think the best option for the Fairy is to follow suit with Summoner and make them actual personal GCDs. It would give us more reason to use GCD for something other than Broil, and if they’re moved to the GCD it means they can get stronger/more interesting effects which will make the fairy feel more valuable and less like a weak regen. Like maybe they could make Embrace like a Cure II heal bomb if it’s on the GCD with a cooldown like Egi Assaults, or they could make Fey Blessing also grant the old Fey Wind effect along with the Medica.

I want to talk about Astrologian too because it seems to kinda get forgotten about sometimes, but my post is already too long. Basically I think the seals system is really fun, but I don’t get why we couldn’t have both the seal mechanics and the old card effects, even if there were adjustments for balance. Or they could have even made it so the cards grant different effects depending on Sect. Like maybe in Diurnal they’re more active like damage increases or regens, but Nocturnal is more passive/defensive? Like Diurnal Balance could increase damage dealt but Nocturnal Balance could decrease damage taken? Maybe Bole could give an increased healing effect in Nocturnal but a regen effect in Diurnal. They could even make it so using Neutral Sect gives both effects at once.

I feel like, for me it’s hard to quit healing because I can see the ways it could be really fun even just based on the current systems. But then, it always ends with the conclusion ‘it could be fun...if they put in the work’. And I can get why it feels like they aren’t really willing to put in the work. The devs seems to really struggle with balancing and designing anything that’s not a pure DPS, which is evidenced by the issues that healers and ranged DPS (which was generally considered a support oriented role prior to Shadowbringers) have been facing since the expansion launched (and have arguably existed since 3.0 onward). And after 4 (6?) years of these same problems persisting, it makes sense that people are frustrated by the devs sweeping it under the carpet and expecting us to wait for the next expansion roulette to find out which GCD abilities we’re losing to be replaced with 438393 pure healing oGCDs in a battle system where most healing is covered by just 1

[CrimsonGunner]

Neither of those companies owe you an explanation.

you are right,they don't owe me an explanation, they owe the community one.
the community that raises complains about the healers issues that the 5.0 changes caused and never received a reply after talking about it for several months, not even "we will look into that" response like summoner has received about the egi glamour system.
while a full length explanation is unnecessary ,they do need to give a reply of "we read your complains and we will examine them" or "those issues will not be taken care of cause X/Y/Z" simple as that to give the community comfort.

[Billythepancake]

But it's not a random delay as you portray it (e.g. "It can take, and I timed this, up to 10 seconds for it to use an ability"), nor is it broken. It's a fundamental misunderstanding on your part on how the fairy works.

Whether you should or shouldn't get the effects immediately is another discussion that has balance implications: should the fairy's abilities be instant?

I did not label it as random or intended. I labeled it as the delay is a major problem and it's broken, which it is. It's absurd that you have to wait for an effect to go off after you use an oGCD. whether that is intended or not, it's broken ridiculous design and it needs to be fixed.