Making jobs spam the same move more than once feels boring

[Shurrikhan]

Well, I already like how Warrior works in Stormblood, and I like it better how it works in Shadowbringers, especially with the tank change. That tank change is not just a damage steroid. You say Warrior gets nothing while I say Warrior gets quality of life change.

Wait, how is Nascent Chaos a QoL improvement? It merely prevents you from using IR at 4th GCD unless you want to waste 18 seconds of Infuriate timer and prevents you from popping Infuriate mid-IR where you could previously pop it whenever (so long as you wouldn't overcap).

If this is a matter of "I said 'change', not necessarily for the better," that's not a semantics battle I'm willing to waste time on...

[linay]

Wait, how is Nascent Chaos a QoL improvement? It merely prevents you from using IR at 4th GCD unless you want to waste 18 seconds of Infuriate timer and prevents you from popping Infuriate mid-IR where you could previously pop it whenever (so long as you wouldn't overcap).

If this is a matter of "I said 'change', not necessarily for the better," that's not a semantics battle I'm willing to waste time on...

I'm talking more about the overall job change, including tank change.

[KalinOrthos]

I'm talking more about the overall job change, including tank change.

When you say "tank change", what exactly do you mean? Are you talking about the removal of tank and DPS stances? Because of all the tanks, Warriors suffered the hardest. Their entire gameplan revolved around swapping between Deliverance and Defiance, damage and defense, in order to make the most of their entire kit. That's why Warrior was actually a lot of fun in SB. But in ShB, in order to remove that asinine "ALL TANKS MUST BE IN DPS STANCE" meta that was being forced, they had to gut that core mechanic from Warrior, which in turn simplified the kit to near autopilot. The 70-80 abilities don't add anything, just gives them bigger numbers.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm talking more about the overall job change, including tank change.

Ahh, kk. (Though, your phrasing here still doesn't make it all that clear what you mean...)

I'll still have to disagree, though, that Warrior's own toolkit received any QoL changes in the move to 5.0. The QoL change was limited solely to the role-wise changes; anything beyond that could have already been solved previously by just... not putting the non-optimal skills on your bar, as they consumed resources better consumed on other skills.

Losing an option that you wouldn't optimally use anyways is at best a change towards button-efficiency (since the job already had fewer keys than most). Otherwise removing Vercure, Physick, and Verraise (outside of fights with sacrifice-cheese mechanics) would all be QoL changes.

Which... kind of goes back to the crux of our disagreement. A streamlining change is not necessarily a QoL change, just as Fell Cleave being a decently well-designed skill in HW doesn't make a Fell Cleave spam skill necessarily well-designed now. It's about the resultant gameplay. Unless you're counting being confused by having additional options (which five minutes of research could tell you exactly what to do with) as causing more negative-affecting gameplay experience than those options made available positively to anyone willing to put in the 5+ minutes, mere trimming does not constitute QoL change. It's just trimming. Removing ramp-up skills allows for more flexible timings, improves burst and ease of sync to raid-buffs, and are therefore QoL changes even if they may have negative consequences in other ways, but outright removing options that you could have easily have just... not used or taken, is not.

[linay]

When you say "tank change", what exactly do you mean? Are you talking about the removal of tank stances?

Yes. You can disagree with the change, but it is quality of life change, even if you think it's a change for the worse.

The 70-80 abilities don't add anything, just give them bigger numbers.

The way I see it, the 70-80 abilities don't stand alone. They add to the 1-70 abilities, which were already good in Stormblood and, for me, gets better in Shadowbringers.

[KalinOrthos]

Yes. You can disagree with the change, but it is quality of life change, even if you think it's a change for the worse.

I'll be honest, I think the "tank change" as you put it, is the best thing to happen to tanking in a very long time in this game. During Stormblood, I started raiding in Deltascape, was pulled in as a DRK even though I was undergeared, and then promptly got kicked for staying in tank stance to keep enmity and to make it easier on the healers. Being forced into DPS stance as a tank really killed the entire experience of the game as a tank main, as I don't play a tank to do damage, but to be a gods-damned wall.

But you are ignoring the fact that Warrior was a major casualty of the change. While DRK and PLD lost very little except a few stance specific things (though DRK is its own can of worms), Warrior lost a menagerie of options and skills that were stance specific, to the point where the job is almost too simple. That's our issue here; Warrior, in its current state, is a stale, hollow representation of what could have been, and your advocacy that everything is fine is ill-informed and narrow-minded.

The way I see it, the 70-80 abilities don't stand alone. They add to the 1-70 abilities, which were already good in Stormblood and, for me, gets better in Shadowbringers.

Of course they don't stand alone. Nascent Chaos is just a steroid to Fell Cleave and Decimate. You get the ability to generate meter from AoE, somethign that should have been there way before 72, and you get old ToB back at 78. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. The only actually new thing Warriors get is Nascent Flash, which is cool, but is mostly used as mitigation, either for yourself or as OT; neither of these actually do much in the way to actually make a Warrior feel like the juggernaut of the group.

[linay]

Ahh, kk. (Though, your phrasing here still doesn't make it all that clear what you mean...)

I'll still have to disagree, though, that Warrior's own toolkit received any QoL changes in the move to 5.0. The QoL change was limited solely to the role-wise changes; anything beyond that could have already been solved previously by just... not putting the non-optimal skills on your bar, as they consumed resources better consumed on other skills.

Losing an option that you wouldn't optimally use anyways is at best a change towards button-efficiency (since the job already had fewer keys than most). Otherwise removing Vercure, Physick, and Verraise (outside of fights with sacrifice-cheese mechanics) would all be QoL changes.

Which... kind of goes back to the crux of our disagreement. A streamlining change is not necessarily a QoL change, just as Fell Cleave being a decently well-designed skill in HW doesn't make a Fell Cleave spam skill necessarily well-designed now. It's about the resultant gameplay. Unless you're counting being confused by having additional options (which five minutes of research could tell you exactly what to do with) as causing more negative-affecting gameplay experience than those options made available positively to anyone willing to put in the 5+ minutes, mere trimming does not constitute QoL change. It's just trimming. Removing ramp-up skills allows for more flexible timings, improves burst and ease of sync to raid-buffs, and are therefore QoL changes even if they may have negative consequences in other ways, but outright removing options that you could have easily have just... not used or taken, is not.

I feel like removing Physick and Resurrection would be a minor quality of life change for SMN unless their removal changes how SMN gets developed. Removing Vercure and Verraise would definitely be a quality of life change for RDM unless nothing changes in its development, which would make it a bad quality of life change.

With regard to Warrior, the main change is definitely in the changes to the role, but as Warrior is part of that role, it definitely inherits that change, for better or for worse.

Going back to the Fell Cleave change, I think I would agree with you if taken on its own, but since I'm considering that as part of the overall job change (at least from Stormblood to Shadowbringers, I started in late Heavensward and didn't really play WAR back then), I think it's a very satisfactory change overall. Do I expect that to be the pattern for WAR upgrade from now on? Not really, but at least with Shadowbringers, I am all in for the change overall.

[Shurrikhan]

The way I see it, the 70-80 abilities don't stand alone. They add to the 1-70 abilities, which were already good in Stormblood and, for me, gets better in Shadowbringers.

Okay, but... how? Let's take that step past some vague gestalt and look at what specifically makes it however good it is.

For instance, I like the Thrill of Battle upgrade because it gives me additional interaction with my healer. It gives us more reason to schedule whatever healing GCD is absolutely necessary to just after a tankbuster that was countered at least in part by ToB. I like healer-tank interactions in general, and that seemed an appropriate spot to put it, so even while it's nothing 'special' exactly, I like it.

Nascent Chaos, on the other hand, is a mechanic that seemed to me to have a lot of potential, but made use of almost none of it. Upon seeing the skill described in the ShB reveal I at first thought "Oh, nice, my Infuriate timing should matter now!" which I could see as working with my other macrorotational factors in interesting ways. But, it doesn't actually add any opportunities for its use. It only takes some opportunities away, offering complexity only by restriction. Thus, while I love the concept and what it could be, I'm badly disappointed by what it actually amounted to.

Going back to the Fell Cleave change, I think I would agree with you if taken on its own, but since I'm considering that as part of the overall job change (at least from Stormblood to Shadowbringers, I started in late Heavensward and didn't really play WAR back then), I think it's a very satisfactory change overall.

But, again, what "change" and why do you think it's good?

The only changes Fell Cleave has received is that it no longer has an opportunity cost except against the combo ppgcd (no Inner Beast or Steel Cyclone mitigation or self-healing to balance its choice against) and it has less of a bonus over the normal rotation (a relative nerf). I don't see why either of those would be good or enjoyable changes.

[linay]

I'll be honest, I think the "tank change" as you put it, is the best thing to happen to tanking in a very long time in this game. During Stormblood, I started raiding in Deltascape, was pulled in as a DRK even though I was undergeared, and then promptly got kicked for staying in tank stance to keep enmity and to make it easier on the healers. Being forced into DPS stance as a tank really killed the entire experience of the game as a tank main, as I don't play a tank to do damage, but to be a gods-damned wall.

But you are ignoring the fact that Warrior was a major casualty of the change. While DRK and PLD lost very little except a few stance specific things (though DRK is its own can of worms), Warrior lost a menagerie of options and skills that were stance specific, to the point where the job is almost too simple. That's our issue here; Warrior, in its current state, is a stale, hollow representation of what could have been, and your advocacy that everything is fine is ill-informed and narrow-minded.




Of course they don't stand alone. Nascent Chaos is just a steroid to Fell Cleave and Decimate. You get the ability to generate meter from AoE, somethign that should have been there way before 72, and you get old ToB back at 78. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. The only actually new thing Warriors get is Nascent Flash, which is cool, but is mostly used as mitigation, either for yourself or as OT; neither of these actually do much in the way to actually make a Warrior feel like the juggernaut of the group.

I would not say that everything is fine, necessarily, but I would say I definitely like the change. I don't think that makes me narrowminded anymore than you thinking that the current WAR is just a hollow job of what it should be makes you narrowminded. We just have different preference on WAR's playstyle. (It does make me amuse when people complain that DRK is now more like WAR when I don't like DRK's change (preferring Stormblood's version), but I love WAR's change.)

[KalinOrthos]

For instance, I like the Thrill of Battle upgrade because it gives me additional interaction with my healer. It gives us more reason to schedule whatever healing GCD is absolutely necessary to just after a tankbuster that was countered at least in part by ToB. I like healer-tank interactions in general, and that seemed an appropriate spot to put it, so even while it's nothing 'special' exactly, I like it.

To be fair, Enhanced ToB just gives you old Defiance ToB, as Defiance used to give you increased healing received, though back then Defiance also naturally gave you 20% HP anyways.