Making jobs spam the same move more than once feels boring

[Shurrikhan]

Tsubame-Gaeshi being described as "non-restrictive" is an odd opinion when its widely considered one of the worst designed skills in the game, and it massively constraints Samurai gameplay due to being so powerful that the optimal rotation for Samurai is a clearly unintended 60 second loop using Hagakure and filler combos solely so that Tsubame-Gaeshi won't drift or fall out of buff windows. It's a skill with such a deeply restrictive design it turns a priority order class into a looping one that needs extremely specific skill speed tiers and Hagakure abuse for its rotation to not drift.

Wouldn't a quote usually indicate that the phrase therein has been written at least once in the thread prior to your post? It hasn't.

Thus far I've called Tsubame-Gaeshi a good example of a capstone skill. I've not called it perfect. I've not called it nonrestrictive. I've just called others restrictive in ways that specifically delay or run counter to previous capstone skills (IC being wasted during IR), which TG is not, and others being changed from something that deepened gameplay to something which merely enforced certain skill speeds for optimal play (TG was always that way, as was Hagakure before it). Apart from that my only comments towards it were that it suffers from

issues like flexibility

and that

I'd slightly prefer it be slightly less significant but more flexible, if it came down to one or the other.

[KalinOrthos]

It's not, though. It's the opposite. Visual and numeric force may be part of the equation, but it's not the whole of it. Gameplay ought be at least half the concern.

Take your two prior example means of upgrade:
Fell Cleave is now a reskin of Inner Beast. It adds no complexity. Gameplay is absolutely, entirely unchanged. It doesn't even adjust relative balance against other attacks in any way that would change how one plays, ever.
Inner Release removes any combo prep from Berserk. It reduces complexity apart from merely restraining SkS breakpoints and devaluing Direct Hit, which is hardly an enjoyable or gameplay change.
Inner Chaos is just a more powerful Inner Beast / Fell Cleave, except in that it restricts IR usage. The complexity added is entirely prohibitive, on the heels of two expansions of changes deliberately meant to reduce prohibitive or delaying interactions.

The burst each successive upgrade provides is tremendous (even assuming balanced rDPS as to make nothing of the added power over time), but compare that to other upgrades: Nostrond isn't a direct upgrade of Geirskogul (it adds macrorotational concerns to its gameplay), Kaeshi: Setsugekka isn't a direct upgrade of Midare Setsugekka (it adds new macrorotational interactions and massively adjusts internal balance), TCJ isn't a direct upgrade of Ninjutsu (and adds an odd-even minute-to-minute macrorotation to NIN), Enkindle Bahamut isn't a direct upgrade to Deathflare, which isn't a direct upgrade to Enkindle, etc., etc.

Now, which -- apart from auxiliary issues like flexibility or high death penalty (TCJ being immobile, DRG losing its eyes over death, etc.) -- are generally seen as the more interesting capstone skills? The ones that do something more for gameplay, or the ones that are direct empowerments of power, aesthetics, or frequency?

Despite being on the side against the sentiment of big gameplay changes being done as we approach level cap, I agree with this. While massive changes or rotational shifts should be avoided as much as possible, there still needs to be something other than just a numbers increase. Example, GNB gameplay changes little from 70-80, but they do get Bloodfest, which gives the class a much faster and cleaner pace during No Mercy windows, and Fated Circle, an AoE cartridge spender. They're smaller changes in the grand scheme of things, but they improve the experience with their inclusion. By contrast Warrior just gets a harder-hitting Fell Cleave and they get to generate rage from AoE, something that should have been there from the start. Nascent Flash is great, but it doesn't really help you feel like you're stronger, just that you can soak more damage.

Improvements aren't just seeing the numbers get bigger, it's -feeling- your job getter stronger as it progresses.

[linay]

Improvements aren't just seeing the numbers get bigger, it's -feeling- your job getter stronger as it progresses.

Increasing the usage of Fell Cleave is not just about seeing numbers get bigger. It's literally a showcase of your job getting stronger as you are able to master a powerful ability even more such that you are able to make use of an ability better, especially when combined with Nascent Chaos.

[KalinOrthos]

Increasing the usage of Fell Cleave is not just about seeing numbers get bigger. It's literally a showcase of your job getting stronger as you are able to master a powerful ability even more such that you are able to make use of an ability better, especially when combined with Nascent Chaos.

Increased Fell Cleave usage comes at 70. From 70-80, Warrior gets, in order, Berserk-enhanced Decimate, AoE gauge generation, Nascent Flash (which is fun, but, again, doesn't really make you feel stronger), better ToB, and Berserk-enhanced Fell Cleave. Nascent Chaos only really makes the numbers bigger, they don't give you new tools to play around with. I don't think that's enough to give Warrior a true feeling of improvement, especially when Paladin gets an extra three steps in its rotation and magic finisher, Dark Knight gets a new AoE step and the Stand [PAINT IT BLACK], and Gunbreaker gets instant full meter and another AoE step, and this is JUST the tanks.

My point isn't that number increases aren't you getting stronger, it's that number increases alone aren't enough to make a class genuinely feel like it's getting better.

With that said, completely changing the way a class plays the closer they get to the level cap is too far a swing in the opposite direction. Instead of making the class feel stale, it ends up being completely different from what you started out with. For some, that's fine, but it makes new player experiences even more difficult because you have to forget everything you spend 80 levels learning. There's a balance; abilities like Nascent Chaos, Blasting Zone, and Edge/Flood of Shadow have their place in giving the raw damage increases, but it also has to come with new, useful tools and toys to play with.

[linay]

My point isn't that number increases aren't you getting stronger, it's that number increases alone aren't enough to make a class genuinely feel like it's getting better.

But even in Warrior's case, it doesn't just have number increases. That's just the specific effect of Nascent Chaos. And there is also something to be said about not completely changing everything, as you've said. So you can use Fell Cleave more at 70 and you can upgrade Fell Cleave at 80. That's a nice, steady progression, along with other changes to the job, most notably in Shadowbringers being the tank changes where you don't have to sacrifice defense for offense in terms of enmity management.

[StriderShinryu]

I don't necessarily hate this as a concept but I do find that it tends to just make the combat look pretty ugly. 14 is usually a pretty solid looking game animation wise, even for it's age, but it just looks silly/clumsy when you're stuck spamming the same move repeatedly 5 times in a row. For me the biggest offender to this is DRK (and note my DRK is only level 70). The single target spammed skill already isn't the most visually impressive move to begin with but when you do it 4 or 5 times in a row it just looks dumb. It would be nice if they at least turned a single chained move into a combo visually even if the effect didn't change. That alone would remove much of the tedium for me at least.

[KalinOrthos]

But even in Warrior's case, it doesn't just have number increases. That's just the specific effect of Nascent Chaos. And there is also something to be said about not completely changing everything, as you've said. So you can use Fell Cleave more at 70 and you can upgrade Fell Cleave at 80. That's a nice, steady progression, along with other changes to the job, most notably in Shadowbringers being the tank changes where you don't have to sacrifice defense for offense in terms of enmity management.

I think you're missing my point. I'm not saying a steady damage progression is bad or unneeded. I'm saying it's not enough. Ask most tanks and the majority will say that Warrior feels stale and like a shadow of its former self, despite the tank balance in this game being as close as it is. Many will say Dark Knight feels stale as well, as the addition of an AoE step and a passive damage increase skill, as cool as it is, is not enough to really change much of how they play. And don't tell me Nascent Chaos changes anything about how you play; all it does is make Berserk, which you used regularly, hit harder.

[linay]

I think you're missing my point. I'm not saying a steady damage progression is bad or unneeded. I'm saying it's not enough. Ask most tanks and the majority will say that Warrior feels stale and like a shadow of its former self, despite the tank balance in this game being as close as it is. Many will say Dark Knight feels stale as well, as the addition of an AoE step and a passive damage increase skill, as cool as it is, is not enough to really change much of how they play. And don't tell me Nascent Chaos changes anything about how you play; all it does is make Berserk, which you used regularly, hit harder.

Sure, but feeling stale is subjective. I used to main SMN in late Heavensward and early Stormblood and I don't like it when they changed it a bit too much in Shadowbringers. Meanwhile, I was able to transition to RDM and loved that it didn't change much in Shadowbringers from the way it was in Stormblood, but still showed improvement. Other people might find RDM boring, and they're entitled to that opinion, but that's irrelevant to me and I hope RDM never strays too far from its current simplicity.

I used to prefer DRK as well before Shadowbringers. Warrior just became more interesting to me in Shadowbringers even though DRK got more changes, from what I can see anyway.

[Hazama999]

I agree with the OP for the most part. I feel like WAR is the only one that gets away with "do X number of Fell Cleaves in a row" simply cause the animation is satisfying to see with how weighty each swing looks. Other jobs just don't give me that feeling for some reason. The animation for DRK's bloodspiller, for example, lifts your character off the ground with how hard the swing is, which should feel good to pull off... but then the generic "DARKNEZ BEAM" that erupts from the ground kinda deflates it for me.

[Tanama]

I don't necessarily hate this as a concept but I do find that it tends to just make the combat look pretty ugly. 14 is usually a pretty solid looking game animation wise, even for it's age, but it just looks silly/clumsy when you're stuck spamming the same move repeatedly 5 times in a row. For me the biggest offender to this is DRK (and note my DRK is only level 70). The single target spammed skill already isn't the most visually impressive move to begin with but when you do it 4 or 5 times in a row it just looks dumb. It would be nice if they at least turned a single chained move into a combo visually even if the effect didn't change. That alone would remove much of the tedium for me at least.

Agreed. Let's hope this becomes a thing some time in the future for both Bloodspiller and Fell Cleave.