Making jobs spam the same move more than once feels boring

[Shurrikhan]

But then you run into the issue of having to deal with your job acting entirely differently when they reach 80, something monks have to deal with, what with having 4 stacks of GL in a stance they've largely ignored up until 76. In fact, for most monks, this is a source of consternation because now they have to worry about building even more stacks without reliable ways to do so, on top of a very stale rotation.

Monks' design nightmare is mostly unique, however; it's hardly a good indication of what designs have or have not worked among other jobs.

The point in contention is whether "the old capstone skill, but more often" is a sufficient concept for a capstone skill. Monk doesn't have that. It provides no answer towards either way.

The closest Monk gets to that is perhaps Deep Meditation II, which is a passive rather than a skill, or TK and SSS, which don't much actually allow for increased uses of each other (as one can SSS and then just FS spam to maintain GL, and can only get about four uses of TK across the entire raid tier). Its contribution to that discussion is therefore minimal at best.

[linay]

The point in contention is whether "the old capstone skill, but more often" is a sufficient concept for a capstone skill.

It...does, actually. A "capstone skill" is something that should finishes (or tops) off a rotation. So, there are two ways to improve: either "reach new heights" or simply improve the existing capstone. The first can be done by upgrading the move, such as Warrior's Fell Cleave turning to Inner Chaos, while the latter can be done by allowing multiple usage of the capstone skill, such as multiple usage of Warrior's Fell Cleave. These are certainly not the only way, but each is a sufficient and valid method for improvement/progress.

[althenawhm]

It...does, actually. A "capstone skill" is something that should finishes (or tops) off a rotation. So, there are two ways to improve: either "reach new heights" or simply improve the existing capstone.

So healers are an absolute mess then.

[Shurrikhan]

It...does, actually. A "capstone skill" is something that should finishes (or tops) off a rotation. So, there are two ways to improve: either "reach new heights" or simply improve the existing capstone. The first can be done by upgrading the move, such as Warrior's Fell Cleave turning to Inner Chaos, while the latter can be done by allowing multiple usage of the capstone skill, such as multiple usage of Warrior's Fell Cleave. These are certainly not the only way, but each is a sufficient and valid method for improvement/progress.

Which "it" and what "does"?

Neither answers the question of whether "'the old capstone skill, but more often' is a sufficient concept for a [later] capstone skill".

Personally, I find Tsubame Gaeshi a great example of a capstone skill, just as I thought Midare was back at 60 and the original Hagakure was over the SB range. Each brought their surrounding actions into focus, giving something to work towards and, more importantly, around. I also found that true of the original Inner Release, as far more went into preparing for it -- making its oGCDs, especially Onslaught, a fair bit more compelling through its existence. But it was good capstone skill because of its effects on gameplay, not merely on the aesthetics provided by Fell Cleave x 5. Inner Chaos, likewise, does nothing for me. Its gameplay effect, at best, is that it can't be used during IR. It feels more restrictive than deep or preparatory.

We can create a slew of methods for improving upon capstone skills in terms of sheer visual or numeric force, but I'd have to agree with the OP that force alone doesn't make a compelling capstone skill; such depends instead on the gameplay effects that skill carries, and the gameplay effects ought therefore to be the priority in designing them. Anything else is to put the means before the ends.

[Shurrikhan]

So healers are an absolute mess then.

By that definition, they'd actually be perfect. After all, what could be a more improved means of topping of WHM's rotation (formerly Stone spam) than a new and improved DoT (replacing Aero II/III per X), or improving the rotation itself than a direct upgrade from Stone spam to Glare spam?

It "reach[es] new heights", and "improves the existing capstone".

And yet, it's hardly compelling.

[Averax]

Just going to ignore the giant gaping role that spams 1 button dw SE does too :P

Don't tell the OP about healers, it's a secret.

[linay]

Which "it" and what "does"?

Neither answers the question of whether "'the old capstone skill, but more often' is a sufficient concept for a [later] capstone skill".

Personally, I find Tsubame Gaeshi a great example of a capstone skill, just as I thought Midare was back at 60 and the original Hagakure was over the SB range. Each brought their surrounding actions into focus, giving something to work towards and, more importantly, around. I also found that true of the original Inner Release, as far more went into preparing for it -- making its oGCDs, especially Onslaught, a fair bit more compelling through its existence. But it was good capstone skill because of its effects on gameplay, not merely on the aesthetics provided by Fell Cleave x 5. Inner Chaos, likewise, does nothing for me. Its gameplay effect, at best, is that it can't be used during IR. It feels more restrictive than deep or preparatory.

We can create a slew of methods for improving upon capstone skills in terms of sheer visual or numeric force, but I'd have to agree with the OP that force alone doesn't make a compelling capstone skill; such depends instead on the gameplay effects that skill carries, and the gameplay effects ought therefore to be the priority in designing them. Anything else is to put the means before the ends.

Which it (the concept of "the old capstone skill, but more often") does (suffices as a concept for a capstone skill).

The end is to defeat the enemies and the abilities are the means to that end. There doesn't need to be a "new" capstone skill as long as there is still an improvement in some way that shows growth of the job in the overall rotation leading up to a capstone skill to end a particular rotation, even if that capstone skill is an existing skill. To complain about mere "visual and numeric force" is to forget about what ends are meant to be achieved.

[Shurrikhan]

Which it (the concept of "the old capstone skill, but more often") does (suffices as a concept for a capstone skill).

The end is to defeat the enemies and the abilities are the means to that end. There doesn't need to be a "new" capstone skill as long as there is still an improvement in some way that shows growth of the job in the overall rotation leading up to a capstone skill to end a particular rotation, even if that capstone skill is an existing skill. To complain about mere "visual and numeric force" is to forget about what ends are meant to be achieved.

It's not, though. It's the opposite. Visual and numeric force may be part of the equation, but it's not the whole of it. Gameplay ought be at least half the concern.

Take your two prior example means of upgrade:
Fell Cleave is now a reskin of Inner Beast. It adds no complexity. Gameplay is absolutely, entirely unchanged. It doesn't even adjust relative balance against other attacks in any way that would change how one plays, ever.
Inner Release removes any combo prep from Berserk. It reduces complexity apart from merely restraining SkS breakpoints and devaluing Direct Hit, which is hardly an enjoyable or gameplay change.
Inner Chaos is just a more powerful Inner Beast / Fell Cleave, except in that it restricts IR usage. The complexity added is entirely prohibitive, on the heels of two expansions of changes deliberately meant to reduce prohibitive or delaying interactions.

The burst each successive upgrade provides is tremendous (even assuming balanced rDPS as to make nothing of the added power over time), but compare that to other upgrades: Nostrond isn't a direct upgrade of Geirskogul (it adds macrorotational concerns to its gameplay), Kaeshi: Setsugekka isn't a direct upgrade of Midare Setsugekka (it adds new macrorotational interactions and massively adjusts internal balance), TCJ isn't a direct upgrade of Ninjutsu (and adds an odd-even minute-to-minute macrorotation to NIN), Enkindle Bahamut isn't a direct upgrade to Deathflare, which isn't a direct upgrade to Enkindle, etc., etc.

Now, which -- apart from auxiliary issues like flexibility or high death penalty (TCJ being immobile, DRG losing its eyes over death, etc.) -- are generally seen as the more interesting capstone skills? The ones that do something more for gameplay, or the ones that are direct empowerments of power, aesthetics, or frequency?

[linay]

It's not, though. It's the opposite. Visual and numeric force may be part of the equation, but it's not the whole of it. Gameplay ought be at least half the concern.

Take your two prior example means of upgrade:
Fell Cleave is now a reskin of Inner Beast. It adds no complexity. Gameplay is absolutely, entirely unchanged. It doesn't even adjust relative balance against other attacks in any way that would change how one plays, ever.
Inner Release removes any combo prep from Berserk. It reduces complexity apart from merely restraining SkS breakpoints and devaluing Direct Hit, which is hardly an enjoyable or gameplay change.
Inner Chaos is just a more powerful Inner Beast / Fell Cleave, except in that it restricts IR usage. The complexity added is entirely prohibitive, on the heels of two expansions of changes deliberately meant to reduce prohibitive or delaying interactions.

The burst each successive upgrade provides is tremendous (even assuming balanced rDPS as to make nothing of the added power over time), but compare that to other upgrades: Nostrond isn't a direct upgrade of Geirskogul (it adds macrorotational concerns to its gameplay), Kaeshi: Setsugekka isn't a direct upgrade of Midare Setsugekka (it adds new macrorotational interactions and massively adjusts internal balance), TCJ isn't a direct upgrade of Ninjutsu (and adds an odd-even minute-to-minute macrorotation to NIN), Enkindle Bahamut isn't a direct upgrade to Deathflare, which isn't a direct upgrade to Enkindle, etc., etc.

Now, which -- apart from auxiliary issues like flexibility or high death penalty (TCJ being immobile, DRG losing its eyes over death, etc.) -- are generally seen as the more interesting capstone skills? The ones that do something more for gameplay, or the ones that are direct empowerments of power, aesthetics, or frequency?

Gameplay is too subjective a matter. There is something to be appreciated about certain gameplay styles, but that depends on the player. Now, there may be other issues with a rotation overall in its implementation, but to the specific point of repeating a powerful ability, the concept itself as a feature is fine.

[RadicalPesto]

Tsubame-Gaeshi being described as "non-restrictive" is an odd opinion when its widely considered one of the worst designed skills in the game, and it massively constraints Samurai gameplay due to being so powerful that the optimal rotation for Samurai is a clearly unintended 60 second loop using Hagakure and filler combos solely so that Tsubame-Gaeshi won't drift or fall out of buff windows. It's a skill with such a deeply restrictive design it turns a priority order class into a looping one that needs extremely specific skill speed tiers and Hagakure abuse for its rotation to not drift.