Everyone's talking about smn buffs. But what about mch

[Duelle]

As someone leveling MCH (more for the role quests than anything else), I've been keeping an eye on this thread. While I can't offer numbers because I ain't a numbers person, I did want to chime in here.

making their rotation way more complicated? lets be real here, half the classes in the game are pretty braindead and nearly no one goes "oh ninja absolutely needs to outdps monk because its harder" or whatever, don't want to disregard the idea, but i'm pretty sure one could make say bard watch 10 timers and 5 proccs at once and people would still argue that free movement is too big an advantage because the best players in the world could make use of it.

Balancing and/or designing class limitations on perceived "difficulty" isn't a good way to go about things. That said, I wouldn't call MCH braindead just because it can shoot while moving.

2) a set Minimum range may sound similiar on paper to the max melee range but in practice it would be a desaster, staying in heal range ? stack markers ? moments where everyone has to stay in a single corner together with the boss ? with melee at least you generally CAN compensate this situations, but how would having a minimum range work with things like stack markers for the full group or say the gaols during titan uplift ? even assuming mechanics going forward were in a way done were you could either do a melee OR a ranged strat that would still only punish the group while offering nothing in return, completly aside the fact that you would basically allways take the melee variant because thats generally the one where everyone stacks (easier on healing and shielding) and any kind of tactic completly ignoring the melees in favor of ranged would 95% also fuck over the offtank.

If boss design forced ranged to stay away from the boss at all times (for example because the boss fires an attack specifically at ranged that does AoE damage within 6 yalms of the target player every 8s), I could see a reason to implement a dead zone. As things are, where most people tend to just pile up behind the boss and move for mechanics, a dead zone would create problems that are simply not worth the change in design. In terms of personal preference, I never liked the idea of dead zones, even when there's skills to mitigate its presence (like how WoW hunters used to have two melee skills because their guns couldn't be used within a certain range; MCH would have to get something like a melee range taser or something).

3) the return of the castbars. that one while technically possible would be a trainwreck waiting to happen, can't speak for current mch or dancer, but bard as is simply does not work with castbars, not even talking damage, it simply plays worse than things like start of shadowbringers smn or mnk ever could, i mean why do people think bowmage got removed? Surely not because simply slapping castbars on a class designed without them in mind worked out great. Mch's original design worked quite well as you could see it was designed around gauß barrel but bard ? and that was with 2 classes, 1 designed around cast bars. nowadays they would either need to rework 3 classes to feel good playing with castbars (lets not even talk about how dancer would feel thematically having cast bars) or having not 1 bowmage but 3.

To emphasize, one of the main issues with Wanderer's Minuet was that it flipped BRD gameplay on its head from what it was from 1-30 on ARC and 31-51 on BRD. It was like playing DRG as a melee 1-51 and then at lv52 SE introduced a skill that built an entire rotation centered on Piercing Talon that forces you to throw spears from range, and you have no choice but to use it because nearly everything you got for the 51-60 level range is tied to that damn lv52 ability. That's what WM felt like to career BRD players. Not even getting into how it was clunky (screwy Bloodletter procs) and didn't feel good.

Also, I don't think it's necessary to bring back the cast bars on all three physical ranged jobs. Were I making the call (and for the sake of fairness), I'd put their names in a hat and pick 1 and make that the ranged with cast bars. Foregoing RNG, I'd pick BRD and redesign ARC/BRD from scratch around cast bars, then have MCH and DNC focus on their respective gimmicks. Between draw time and taking aim, cast bars make sense on an archer, not so much on gunslinger MCH or weapon-thrower DNC. I could have also vouched for MCH because of how Gauss Barrel used to work with it, but SE went and made them a hot shot gunslinger-type job, so the idea of them standing still and aiming no longer fits.

[Akiudo]

Balancing and/or designing class limitations on perceived "difficulty" isn't a good way to go about things. That said, I wouldn't call MCH braindead just because it can shoot while moving.

i'm totally with you there, just wanted to humor the idea as it gets cited a lot.

If boss design forced ranged to stay away from the boss at all times (for example because the boss fires an attack specifically at ranged that does AoE damage within 6 yalms of the target player every 8s), I could see a reason to implement a dead zone. As things are, where most people tend to just pile up behind the boss and move for mechanics, a dead zone would create problems that are simply not worth the change in design. In terms of personal preference, I never liked the idea of dead zones, even when there's skills to mitigate its presence (like how WoW hunters used to have two melee skills because their guns couldn't be used within a certain range; MCH would have to get something like a melee range taser or something).

The problem runs deeper than boss design, for one a boss forcing "ranged" to stay away, does this include casters ? cause than people would still complain that the phys ranged have it soo much easier than casters. Also if it does any 3 ranged combination (which i don't say should be encouraged, but certainly not actively discoraged) would be put at an active disadvantage because now you either have to heal 3 people instead of two or at least 2 people at random instead of knowing beforehand who will get hit, if however it doesn't include casters on the other hand phys ranged would just fall in the range of "liability because of extra mechanic"+it begs the question of how to handle mechanics that actively encourage the group to stack together, or make due with a smaller amount of the arena, saying "a mch could have a small range taser for example" is like saying "the dragoon can simply bait mechanics while throwing spears". However theres also class design in general, heals in this game aren't designed for the group splitting up, neither are group buffs, and you cant simply raise the range because at least for some of these skills things like a decreased ranged are part of their balance.

To emphasize, one of the main issues with Wanderer's Minuet was that it flipped BRD gameplay on its head from what it was from 1-30 on ARC and 31-51 on BRD. It was like playing DRG as a melee 1-51 and then at lv52 SE introduced a skill that built an entire rotation centered on Piercing Talon that forces you to throw spears from range, and you have no choice but to use it because nearly everything you got for the 51-60 level range is tied to that damn lv52 ability. That's what WM felt like to career BRD players. Not even getting into how it was clunky (screwy Bloodletter procs) and didn't feel good.

i actually was main bard from t1-9 so yea, i know exactly how it felt, and it was even worse than screwy bloodletter proccs (which was a big part, mind you), but it was also the total lack of on demand movement aside from turning it off or spamming feint, the pseudo ogcd imperial arrow (for all non bards, it was technically an ogcd but it had a 1,5 second cast bar, you would ideally cast it after using your instant attack so it filled the ogcd window) or how repelling shot had a damage component which would mean ideally you move close to the boss during your 1 second movement windows or when you got an instant cast and than in time use repelling shot after an instant cast to jump back (dealing damage) without losing a gcd, comparing gauss/menuet was night and day if you tried to play even semi serious.

MCH had
-More instants in General
-More on demand instants
-The ability to keep proccs (instant casts) at least for a few gcd's without losing damage by virtue of being able to save the procc on the third shot for a while.
-Maybe not less (really don't remember) but at the least more controlled ogcd's (hello to weaving randomly happening bloodletters)
-No Pseudo-Ogcd skill a la empirial arrow (i actually believe gauß shot originally worked the same way but than got patched to just be a normal ogcd?)

Also, I don't think it's necessary to bring back the cast bars on all three physical ranged jobs. Were I making the call (and for the sake of fairness), I'd put their names in a hat and pick 1 and make that the ranged with cast bars. Foregoing RNG, I'd pick BRD and redesign ARC/BRD from scratch around cast bars, then have MCH and DNC focus on their respective gimmicks. Between draw time and taking aim, cast bars make sense on an archer, not so much on gunslinger MCH or weapon-thrower DNC. I could have also vouched for MCH because of how Gauss Barrel used to work with it, but SE went and made them a hot shot gunslinger-type job, so the idea of them standing still and aiming no longer fits.

gotta be honest here, i wouldn't have minded if mch going into stormblood kept gauss barrel, where i see the problem is that again, People argue that their needs to be restriction on the role, otherwise we would just have this amazing all ranged meta, if you give castbars to one of these jobs no matter which and keep the others as is all that would do is make 1 phys ranged obviously better than the other two (thats assuming that one gets caster damage going with the castbars, the others don't). Again, i'm totally with you that balancing around "difficulty" is a terrible thing to even try for an mmo, the original post i was adressing was basically saying "just make us hard as shit if that means we can finally get to deal damage" which i can totally understand as the desperate plea not to feel shitty for playing a class you like it is, i just think that finding different gimmicks for the three ranged would leave us exactly where we allready are, half the community going "no, thats to easy, you can't deal damage else no one will take me ever again"

[Duelle]

The problem runs deeper than boss design, for one a boss forcing "ranged" to stay away, does this include casters ? cause than people would still complain that the phys ranged have it soo much easier than casters.

Not necessarily. In my hypothetical scenario, if there's no ranged or everyone is standing at melee range, then this ability that deals AoE damage and goes out every 8s would instead aim one of the melee. Depending on other factors in the fight, you'll want someone to always stand at range to bait the ability, and since it happens regularly, you can't stack up with everyone during the fight for that very reason.

On the topic of melee having it "easier", I'm of the belief melee should have duties of their own mid-fight, but I'm thinking SE is either afraid of pissing melee players off or some of their systems simply have no room for duties outside of hitting the thing until it dies. Otherwise I'd push for stun and interrupt duty to fall squarely on the melee, and designing fights moving forward with that in mind; if your melee ain't interrupting, you're not killing the boss. This gives ranged a role during a fight and melee have theirs as well. Sadly, interrupts has been pushed on tanks (why?) and stuns aren't relevant in most fights, so...

Also if it does any 3 ranged combination (which i don't say should be encouraged, but certainly not actively discoraged) would be put at an active disadvantage because now you either have to heal 3 people instead of two or at least 2 people at random instead of knowing beforehand who will get hit, if however it doesn't include casters on the other hand phys ranged would just fall in the range of "liability because of extra mechanic"+it begs the question of how to handle mechanics that actively encourage the group to stack together, or make due with a smaller amount of the arena, saying "a mch could have a small range taser for example" is like saying "the dragoon can simply bait mechanics while throwing spears". However theres also class design in general, heals in this game aren't designed for the group splitting up, neither are group buffs, and you cant simply raise the range because at least for some of these skills things like a decreased ranged are part of their balance.

This is a fair point. Though I would say my suggestions are keeping pre-mades in mind. Mechanics like what I mentioned should be applicable to Savage and EX fights where most raid leaders have some sort of idea of what their group comp is and how to tweak it to meet their needs. With fights having both mechanics that need to be handled by ranged and duties given to melee, a raid has to aim to be balanced if you want to actually get a kill and have all mechanics covered.

gotta be honest here, i wouldn't have minded if mch going into stormblood kept gauss barrel, where i see the problem is that again, People argue that their needs to be restriction on the role, otherwise we would just have this amazing all ranged meta, if you give castbars to one of these jobs no matter which and keep the others as is all that would do is make 1 phys ranged obviously better than the other two (thats assuming that one gets caster damage going with the castbars, the others don't). Again, i'm totally with you that balancing around "difficulty" is a terrible thing to even try for an mmo, the original post i was adressing was basically saying "just make us hard as shit if that means we can finally get to deal damage" which i can totally understand as the desperate plea not to feel shitty for playing a class you like it is, i just think that finding different gimmicks for the three ranged would leave us exactly where we allready are, half the community going "no, thats to easy, you can't deal damage else no one will take me ever again"

To be frank, I think that splitting ranged DPS into magical and physical was a mistake in the long run. Ranged should be one category composed of what we call casters and physical ranged, with each job being tuned around their specific concept and expected DPS output of the role on a job-per-job basis, not within the confines of a subrole that has to be in a certain bracket because reasons. And this is especially true for MCH thanks to it being the most "selfish" of the three physical ranged jobs.

In a world where Refresh, BRD songs and MCH auras don't exist, there's little sense in keeping ranged split into two categories. One could say utility, though we already have examples of things like MNK with Mantra, SMN with Devotion and RDM with off-heals and Raise as to why that logic is shaky at best.

[Akiudo]

Not necessarily. In my hypothetical scenario, if there's no ranged or everyone is standing at melee range, then this ability that deals AoE damage and goes out every 8s would instead aim one of the melee. Depending on other factors in the fight, you'll want someone to always stand at range to bait the ability, and since it happens regularly, you can't stack up with everyone during the fight for that very reason.

On the topic of melee having it "easier", I'm of the belief melee should have duties of their own mid-fight, but I'm thinking SE is either afraid of pissing melee players off or some of their systems simply have no room for duties outside of hitting the thing until it dies. Otherwise I'd push for stun and interrupt duty to fall squarely on the melee, and designing fights moving forward with that in mind; if your melee ain't interrupting, you're not killing the boss. This gives ranged a role during a fight and melee have theirs as well. Sadly, interrupts has been pushed on tanks (why?) and stuns aren't relevant in most fights, so...

Sorry if i was being unclear but you kinda miss my point here, what i mean is if this is a mechanic that hits say the 2 dps that are furthest away than that does in no way, shape or form change that phys ranged are so much "easier" than the casters that people that now argue phys ranged are so advantaged by their mobility they are going to make everyone else obsolete by doing comparable damage will change their opinion on that. while at the same time making certain kinds of fight mechanics we have right now really really problematic, like yes, you could in the future design fights with that in mind, but restricting what you can or can't do during fight design without any payoff (solving the "phys ranged have it so much easier" situation) i would argue is not worth it.

This is a fair point. Though I would say my suggestions are keeping pre-mades in mind. Mechanics like what I mentioned should be applicable to Savage and EX fights where most raid leaders have some sort of idea of what their group comp is and how to tweak it to meet their needs. With fights having both mechanics that need to be handled by ranged and duties given to melee, a raid has to aim to be balanced if you want to actually get a kill and have all mechanics covered.

and expecting a "balanced" group and punishing you in some way shape or form for having one that is unbalanced is fair, my point was that theres no reason square should actively encourage "2 melee/1 caster/1 phys ranged" or even "2 melee/2 ranged" as balanced considering we got 4 melees and 6 ranged. Like i said earlier, it should not be discouraged, you should not want 1 melee and never a second, but theres really no reason square should actively make you want a second melee over a second caster/phys ranged, the current class distribution really doesn't support that setup anymore, this was different when the game launched and has simply stuck until now but that doesn't mean the developer actively should push for it to be kept that way.

To be frank, I think that splitting ranged DPS into magical and physical was a mistake in the long run. Ranged should be one category composed of what we call casters and physical ranged, with each job being tuned around their specific concept and expected DPS output of the role on a job-per-job basis, not within the confines of a subrole that has to be in a certain bracket because reasons. And this is especially true for MCH thanks to it being the most "selfish" of the three physical ranged jobs.

In a world where Refresh, BRD songs and MCH auras don't exist, there's little sense in keeping ranged split into two categories. One could say utility, though we already have examples of things like MNK with Mantra, SMN with Devotion and RDM with off-heals and Raise as to why that logic is shaky at best.

while i would disagree on dps buffs being called utility balance wise i actually am in agreement with you here, personally i believe casters/phys ranged should be the sole category of "ranged" counterbalanced by the category of "melee" in which case it would also once again make sense to push for a 2/2 split (though this also means we should get 2 melees as the next dps), but the fact of the matter is that a) as it is thats not what we got, that may or may not change in the future, right now it doesn't look like it will. And B) that still doesn't adress the "physical ranged are soooo superior because they can all dance around like ninjas" argument.