Geomancer and Chemist - A Better Idea

[Shurrikhan]

Overall, an interesting concept with its own merits, but as Shurri put it, it doesn't quite "click" for me.

Ehh, with a few revisions, I think it'd grow on me quite quickly.

I think it's honestly just that I'm not quite able to reconcile its aesthetic with what we've gotten in-game so far, even from among the Garleans. With that corrected, and then the toolkit refined for a bit more distinction and a little less redundancy, its concept would be as compelling as any of our current healers', and would likely be a generation of refinement ahead of them in its iteration. (Here's hoping future healers are allowed to go all out, and future healers made more distinct from each other, rather than each being fettered to the same shared bulk of a kit.)

[Leidiriv]

Ehh, with a few revisions, I think it'd grow on me quite quickly.

I think it's honestly just that I'm not quite able to reconcile its aesthetic with what we've gotten in-game so far, even from among the Garleans. With that corrected, and then the toolkit refined for a bit more distinction and a little less redundancy, its concept would be as compelling as any of our current healers', and would likely be a generation of refinement ahead of them in its iteration. (Here's hoping future healers are allowed to go all out, and future healers made more distinct from each other, rather than each being fettered to the same shared bulk of a kit.)

The aesthetic can definitely be made less incongruent with what we've seen of Garlemald so far, my descriptions were very specifically somewhat vague to keep things malleable. Aside from that, which things do you think could use some refining/trimming? I'm all ears, and I really want to make this concept the best it can be.

[Shurrikhan]

[1] The aesthetic can definitely be made less incongruent with what we've seen of Garlemald so far, my descriptions were very specifically somewhat vague to keep things malleable. [2] Aside from that, which things do you think could use some refining/trimming? I'm all ears, and I really want to make this concept the best it can be.

Forums ate my post. Twice. So here goes, in shorter version...

[1] That's fair and probably for the best. We do want to offer a fair bit of variance, after all. I'm wishing now, even more than usual, that I possessed even the slightest tinge of artistic talent so I could try to relate some idea of what ranges of weapon designs I think could be varied yet congruent, and interesting without being impractical.

[2] I think I need to ask more about the weapon before I can fairly start, because that involves one of my core complaints, but there's also very little detail on it so far.

I've been imagining it as being capable of both (far-reaching) spray and use of projectile. I imagine the weapon itself would look something like a flamethrower in that it has a barrel from which fluid payload can be launched or added to another, and may be optionally ignited, electrified, or saturated with further aether, etc.. But I figure it would best also would hold, in cohesive fashion, a few other normally modular parts. Among these would be a way to (1) dispense the normal payload in burst via projectile, at range, perhaps through the use of a material cask produced inside the weapon itself or through some manner of "Shell" spell, meant in either case only to last until impact or near impact, or (2) launch an alternate payload summoned materially from some depository as with MCH devices.

The first -- if allowing the projectile 'bay', so to speak, to bank resources -- would make the projectiles' use would integral to typical gameplay as a sort of balancing/filtering system; after all, you'd effectively be filling it via the normal flow or by diverting some part or characteristic of the normal flow. This means it'd be tied whatever's normally going on, though perhaps as a foil to your purposes for your spray. For instance, you could purify your canister even when no useful target is present, or just continuously over time on toggle command, by flushing toxins into the projectile chamber, causing a particularly potent-to-enemies projectile while increasing the potency of your spray to allies (and perhaps decreasing its simultaneous damage to enemies, though you can always change how favorable the extremes should be for that, if at all). Such could be like a maintenance mechanic done right, in that it wouldn't just be maintaining a single optimal outcome, but always allowing preparation towards some strategic payoff.

The second would allow you more direct manipulation, similar to ammo types. You summon X, put in the gun, and can either launch it immediately at its full payload, or you can choose to filter it into your normal stuff for additional potency or X effect.

Or you could take both. Or whatever else; those are just spitball ideas.

The point is, though, that you have a highly technological job with at least a pretense of great ingenuity and complexity; the weapon that allows for all that must, if fully fleshed out, therefore hold a trove of mechanical possibilities to work from. I'd like to see that from the toolkit. The weapon is your base for everything. Start there. Rely not one bit on skill templates until you've maxed out the options inherent to your weapon and its likely accessories (e.g. a hip-attached chemical injector/ejector or whatever else).

[Archwizard]

Should I potentially also add clauses to that one for SpS and Surecast? With regards to the aesthetics thing, I don't necessarily agree, since MNK and RDM in particular would benefit from having an additional body on the field throwing out weaponskills for the phys damage.

One problem with the Magiteknical Synthesis trait is that, while it's introduced at the same level as Swiftcast, it ignores that Role Actions like Swiftcast and Surecast aren't affected by level-syncing (so they're available to the job while synced at level 1 after reaching the appropriate unsynced level for unlocking them, which would be automatic in keeping the trend following Heavensward) -- which is also the only reason to introduce such a trait at that level in the first place. I would recommend introducing it at level 1 instead, but then it goes to further illustrate the point about the change being largely cosmetic rather than technical.

You do have a point about Brotherhood and Embolden, but I would also remind you that Magical and Physical damage are not purely divided up by Spells and Weaponskills -- as illustrated by jobs like RDM, BRD and NIN, who deal Magical damage with Weaponskills, or BLU who does Physical damage with Spells -- but rather by the damage types themselves (Unaspected and Elemental for Magical, Slash/Blunt/Pierce for Physical). You could continue to have the job perform Physical damage without being weaponskills; however, I would also point out that by having such a disparity, there remains a strong possibility of MED being treated as mandatory for specific group compositions, or having their output be balanced around the presence of Physical-boosting DPS jobs.

Regarding the Solution spending, what would you recommend?

I have to wonder if perhaps one way to do it would be to treat Solutions as the alternate resource, having their count be part of the MED's UI instead of stacking on allies?

As for M-Elixir, I view it as being like Cure III is to the basic Medica for WHM. The latter's useful in a pinch if you absolutely need the lower MP cost, but the former's overall more efficient.

I brought it up because M-Elixir didn't have a listed MP cost, and with all of its other stats being the same as M-Potion except for a higher potency and range, it appears as both more efficient and a straight upgrade.

The Sprays just act like Flamethrower and Red/Inferno Fang is more like what Miasma II used to be for SCH.

Maybe I was confused when leveling SCH, but weren't there some levels where Miasma II was worthwhile in single-target (particularly over Ruin II for weaving, since the DoT was considered useless in AoE)?
... Possibly my fault for having leveled WHM first.

[Leidiriv]

My bad on M-Elixir, it was meant to have a 1300 MP cost, not sure why that didn't end up getting in there.

So, your idea for the Solutions is to make them more reminiscent of Combo Points in a sense? Ican get behind that, it'd still require some prep-work but be less fiddly. I'd have to change the Solution values on the abilities for sure, but it could definitely work.

Also, refarding Magiteknical Synthesis, the lowest a dungeon will ever sync you to is 18, with Sastasha. Guildhests might not be quite as forgiving in that regard, but the 2 Guildhests where you wouldn't have Magiteknical Synthesis are so easy I'm not even sure if you have to press a heal during them or not lol.

And lastly, regarding Red/Inferno Fang and Miasma II, SCH did use Miasma II as a weaving tool because Ruin II was just that pathetic back in the day. I really liked that paradigm of your AoE having a purpose for mobility and all that, so I co-opted it for MED.

[Archwizard]

Also, refarding Magiteknical Synthesis, the lowest a dungeon will ever sync you to is 18, with Sastasha. Guildhests might not be quite as forgiving in that regard, but the 2 Guildhests where you wouldn't have Magiteknical Synthesis are so easy I'm not even sure if you have to press a heal during them or not lol.

Sure, but there is other synced content, like PotD or FATEs, which can get you lower than even Sastasha.

[Leidiriv]

Sure, but there is other synced content, like PotD or FATEs, which can get you lower than even Sastasha.

Ah yeah, I forgot PotD somehow >.>

FATEs are kind of the same situation as the first two Guildhests though. I guess it couldn't hurt to move MS earlier though.

[Duelle]

You're talking in circles and ignoring my responses. I already explained that 14's AST is related to Astrologer from FF Tactics in name only. Stop acting like they magically conjured another dozen or so additives for it from thin air, when you know they just renamed Time Mage.

Who said anything about conjuring things to make XIV's AST? Aside from the card gimmick, the bulk of the skills and mechanics for AST were taken from XIV's WHM and SCH. What I'm saying is that SE went and built AST instead of letting themselves get stuck at Galaxy Stop/Celestial Stasis. By the same token, neither they nor we should get stuck on the Mix command when discussing Chemist.

The unique job resources are built resources that determine the flow of the rotation. MP is used as a spender and limiter for each job that uses it, so that they're not just reliant on CDs for their strongest heals. In the hands of a WHM it keeps them from just spamming Cure II/III, Medica II and Raise, and encourages them to use more efficient forms of healing like Cure and the Afflatus line. Also, jobs in other roles don't have their spender resource gain determined by an unavoidable gear stat -- partly because TP was removed.

Indeed. This, however, does not have anything to do with what I suggested. If you're looking for an analogue to how I picture Tool Energy (I really wish I could come up with a better name) would work, I'll point to Energy as used in WoW and Energy as used in SWTOR. Both are resources spent and recovered relatively quickly, with SWTOR having a penalty to energy regen to punish spamming of abilities that consume energy. While WoW does not use this for any healer, SWTOR does on for the Smuggler (Sawbones spec) and Imperial Agent (Medicine spec).

Then why would it even have a ranged weapon.

Aesthetics and an explanation for being able to launch things from a distance; I did mention things like darts/syringes, which would justify the job having a firearm as a main weapon or as a sidearm. Also, not all firearms have to work at the same speed as MCH's guns, and in the case of CHM I'd expect something that shoots a heavier payload and takes longer to reload, making firing the thing willy nilly very inefficient at best and a waste of ammo (in-world) at worst.

Look, here's the problem: You are still arguing aesthetics and cosmetics as a response to lack of mechanics.

When did we shift to a strict discussion on mechanics? I presented ideas and contested the claims that Chemist can't be implemented as a healer. I've provided rough examples for gameplay and mechanics (I haven't sat down and done a write up on it...yet), so I'm not sure what more you'd like. If you want a full ability write up with gameplay and traits, I ain't got one this time.

That said, I guess I can try to indulge you.

General gameplay for Chemist at the baseline would be similar to that of the other healers, in that it would have cast times to use heals. The cast times in-game would be preparation times for alchemical potions and solutions used to restore HP and perform other functions. As we know, chemical processes have byproducts that can't be used as part of whatever it is that you're making. The medical tool(s) CHM uses capture these byproducts and refine them into Primers.

This means that CHM has two resources to deal with. Tool Energy for the preparation of potions (again, a resource that is consumed quickly but also recharges quickly), and Primers (a resource generated over time by preparing potions). The UI for CHM would have the Tool Energy Bar and four bottle-shaped icons along the bottom to indicate any primers accumulated. Unlike the Lilies or Astral Fire/Umbral Ice, Primers are generated piecemeal over the course of a fight rather than by singular abilities. The way the game shows this is that preparing a potion will fill a percentage of a Primer bottle until it hits 100%, at which point the Primer can be spent on specific potions that require them or to empower an existing heal/attack. You could throw in a mechanic that causes potion preparation to sometimes contribute more to the accumulation of a primer or grant a whole primer to use. Like:

Abilities

02 Basic Potion - Restores target's HP. Cure potency: 400. Cast time: 2s. Tool Energy cost: 25. Additional effect: Increases Primer gauge by 15%.

Traits

26 Efficacy - Basic Potion and Advanced Potion have 30% chance to triple their increases to the Primer gauge.
40 Complete Efficacy - Basic Potion and Advanced Potion have a 10% chance to increase your current number of Primers by 1.

As mentioned, Primers can be used on abilities that require them (an AoE heal called Hyper Potion) or to empower existing abilities (Poisoned Syringe becoming Toxic Syringe when combined with a primer). I haven't decided if I want primers to be consumed automatically or add an oGCD ability that applies a primer to the target.

Since we're dealing with potions instead of magic, certain curatives used by Chemists leave residue on their recipients. These can be capitalized on through the use of the ability Catalyst. Mechanics-wise, Catalyst is an ability on a short cooldown (in concept, this is something the CHM would have prepared ahead of time) that can trigger effects on friend or foe depending on the target and what effects/residue might be active. An example would be that an enemy affected of Poisoned Syringe (a DoT effect) would take a burst of damage when Catalyst is used on them. Conversely if used on an ally affected by the single-target HoT Healing Ampoule, the HoT duration is refreshed and the cure potency of the HoT is increased. Other uses (though unlikely now because of what has been done to healers with Shadowbringers) include Catalyst setting the floor patch created by Tar Bomb on fire to deal damage over time (though I'm sure BRDs would complain about CHM getting Flaming Arrow).

That's all for now.

Surprised it took this long to get around to just saying "give them a hammer since MCH doesn't use one."

More like "I want to give it something that can double as a sort of tool but can also be used as a weapon". Personally, I'd lean to the wrench/lever/key. For reference, see the Whirligig Saw from Bloodborne, but with the non-mechanical part being attachable to a medical tool instead of a giant pizza cutter.

Considering the current design of the healers,whether or not we like it, are balanced around having a key set of abilities (namely the load out spread of their gcd spells) I would personally expect chemist to follow suit and just use non magical or magitek like aesthetics. So yeah, I would fully expect for a chemist healer to have a contradictory aesthetic like red mage does, would it be more interesting and fitting to throw them in aiming gear? Yes. Do I expect it considering how SE tries to balance its role? No.

I agree that it's unlikely that SE would venture outside of their current design if they don't have to. That said, my brain wouldn't melt from seeing a healer in Aiming gear or a hybrid like RDM on Striking/Maiming gear provided there's some logic behind it.

As things are right now, we're shackling healers to MP pools and magic, which not only limits our options but is also sort of (and I rarely use this word) boring.

The Medicus

To start, I commend you for solving the conceptual dissonance of the chemist-style healer with MP.

That said, I'm not too comfortable with your "Solution stacks" system. Are your heals tuned around a sort of median (by this I mean, are they tuned expecting your party members to have 3 or 4 stacks when you use the Solution spender instead of full stacks)? Also, do Solutions do anything to your party members while on them?

[Leidiriv]

Thanks! Also, the Solutions do not have any passive effects and I've tuned the spenders to be about right at 3 stacks since that's about when AC Charge/Pulse hit the shield potencies of Adlo/Succ. If you spend extra time/resources, things will naturally be burstier, giving the class some good downtime tools. Of course, once the resource loop really gets going pretty much everything's going to be at 5 Solutions thanks to the Sprays. Perhaps I should slightly nerf my Solution spenders then?

[Brandedblade]

I'd like to shift the discussion back to Geomancer briefly. Personally I've liked the concept of Geomancer being a caster that emphasizes positioning. Since Geomancer's shtick seems to be about where they're standing at the time of using their Terrain abilities, and even FFXI emulated this feel with the way their Indi and Geo Spells worked and their Cardinal Chant mechanic (which augmented their black magic spells based on what compass position they where relative to their enemies.

The question would be, however. How to make that work? Would they have to be incredibly mobile to allow them to appropriately position themselves on the flank and rear before casting different spells? Perhaps a combo system like...

Quake-> Deals bonus damage from the rear -> Tornado -> Is instant cast if cast after Quake and applies a DoT if cast from the flank-> Flood -> Deals bonus damage if cast from the rear and the target is afflicted by the Tornado dot.

Wouldnt that just make it akin to red mage but with positionals? I'd like to hear more thoughts about a theoretical Geo design.