Thank you, Square, for listening to the majority.

[Jojoya]

This is where I'll stop you. People do care because of the rewards. You have a mount, hairstyle, glamours and an emote. Why do you think people already stressed the servers using the world visit? Because they wanted to get these rewards ASAP. Else why do you think low population servers progressed this fast with world visit? Because people wanted the FATEs to pop up. And that is evident when you see how slowly these severs are progressing now.

You need to stop insisting wanderers leeching off FATEs were the ones responsible for server progress. They weren't. 99% of them weren't contributing a darn thing to the worlds they were visiting except congestion.

The lower pop servers are taking longer to progress now because EVERYONE was taking longer to progress on Stage 3. The number of contributions required to fill the bar is significantly higher than the other stages. Balmung had stages 1 and 2 knocked out in a day but took 2 days to complete stage 3. Seems like it would make sense for the low pop servers to take twice as long to complete Stage 3 as well, right? And that's exactly what's happening. With the possible exception of Spriggan, every world will have its Stage 3 completed by Tuesday, only one week after the content was released. No one is falling behind anything because there's nothing else to do.

Is there no one else alarmed that content intended to require ongoing server cooperation has been completed in such a short period of time, so short that many players never got a chance to participate and watch the progress happen? Sure, they can continue to turn in items for scrip and rewards but they missed out on seeing things change. It's hard to get excited when you feel like you're only being allowed in after the party is over.

SE should know that a large portion of the player base has little self control when new content is introduced. They're going figure out the most rewarding, less effort portion of the content and latch onto that to get what they want. They're going to consume it as fast as possible then complain there's nothing left for them to do.

That type of player should never be left dictating how long content lasts because they've now cut the rest of the player base out of that content.

It would have been better for the first stage to be the longest stage to give all players a reasonable chance to get involved and see what was going on before the visual progress started getting made, or at the very least make all stages of the project phase last the same amount of time.

As for the FATEs, the Concerted Works needs to last far longer. Make them last a week with FATEs occurring every 2-4 hours to give all players a reasonable chance to participate. Kill the XP and scrip rewards to 10% of what they currently to bring the reward to effort ratio more in line with what we get for the contributions that actually count toward progress. There doesn't need to be visual progress after every FATE. Set it up to occur every 10 completed FATEs or something similar.

Honestly, none of this was well planned out when player habits were not taken into account for the stage design.

[Alucard135]

The rewards are not really massive. 500 skyscripts and a crafter/gatherer level isn't something so massive that everyone in a datacenter must get in on it when you can compare it to what a level 70 or 80 crafter+gatherer can make in an hour. What was massive was that due to world visiting a limited number could semi-monopolize the FATEs to potentially get up to 8k skyscripts and 16 crafter/gatherer levels every time the phases advanced in the datacenter.

Not everyone has a level 70 or 80 crafters let alone gatherers. That’s why 500 scrips is a massive reward along with an entire level worth of EXP to those that don’t. Hence why I told you the participants’ number is a lot more than 10-15% as you stated earlier. Those that already have their jobs leveled won’t consider the rewards worth it just like you don’t consider that yourself. As I said also, those that have these jobs leveled can be around 10-15% of the population.

This was a Tragedy of the Commons caused by a greedy few who wanted the new mount and other rewards as soon as possible with the least amount of work.

That will always happen. It’s not surprising at all in MMOs.

Stop. The low pop servers are not progressing much slower than before wanderers were sealed off. Stage 3 has a much larger supply requirement than the previous 2 phases. If you compare their relative speeds servers are maintaining the same relative pace. The wanderers were more than likely taking up space more than they were actively helping. It is looking like every Server will have completed all 3 stages of phase 1 before reset on Tuesday.

Well, I’m glad you mentioned relative speeds. Because I do have data to back up my claims. Siren is the last server to finish on Aether today a couple of hrs ago. So let us compare its relative speed against Cactaur which is the first to finish on Aether. (All times are in EST)

Cactuar finished P2 and started P3 at Wednesday around 12:09am and finished P3 at Friday 3:14pm. So it took roughly 63hrs for Cactuar to finish P3.

Siren finished P2 and started P3 at Wednesday around 10:23pm and finished today at 3:28am. So it took Siren roughly 89hrs to finish P3.

From that you can conclude that Cactuar’s speed is roughly 1.41 times that of Siren in completion. Now Siren started P2 at Tuesday around 10:57ish pm according to the data people shared. So it took Siren around almost 24hrs to finish P2. Now, I don’t have the data further than what I posted above for Cactuar, but based on the relative speed of 1.41, Cactuar should have finished P2 in 17hrs, meaning roughly around Tuesday at around 7am!! Which means they had an inhuman speed and completed P1 in 2hrs from release while Siren took 18hrs from release. This contradiction is because you assumed that there was no contribution from the other worlds so the relative speed is constant. Unless the relative speed was varying, which means others contributed, you will not be able to explain how Cactuar took 2hrs for P1 (9times Siren’s speed) and 17hrs for P2 while Siren took 18hrs for P1 and 24hrs for P2. So the claim that there was no contribution is a false claim until someone can provide data that says otherwise.

No, I am not saying that people do not care about the rewards. There is a fair portion of players that are not rushing to get all the rewards day 1/week 1. Most of those currently with the new mount are those who abused the world visit system and locked locals out of the FATEs in their own greed.

Because it was the easiest, fastest way to them. As I said above, it will always happen. Put something with reward that people want and restrict it to a certain time and watch the congestion.
Even without world visiting, people would have parked in their world to get those scrips, especially if they don’t have level 70-80 crafters + gatherers, thus preventing locals from participating nonetheless. And it would have been much worse if they realized that it was only 6 FATEs from day one. So, the blame falls on SE for creating content that is restrictive and rewarding at the same time.

You need to stop insisting wanderers leeching off FATEs were the ones responsible for server progress. They weren't. 99% of them weren't contributing a darn thing to the worlds they were visiting except congestion.

Read the above and explain the timelines. Also, I never said there weren't wanderers leeching or that they are contributing to the progress. They were only leeching during the 1-2hrs of the FATE times. Other than that, wanderers that remained there were helping. Else you'd have the contradiction I explained above. So now those claiming that there was no contribution from wanderers in general, would have to provide their proof. Just simply saying P3 took more than P1 and P2 is not enough unless you know exactly how long is P3 compared to P1 and P2.

[DPZ2]

Well, I’m glad you mentioned relative speeds. Because I do have data to back up my claims. Siren is the last server to finish on Aether today a couple of hrs ago. So let us compare its relative speed against Cactaur which is the first to finish on Aether. (All times are in EST)

...

Cactuar finished P2 and started P3 at Wednesday around 12:09am and finished P3 at Friday 3:14pm. So it took roughly 63hrs for Cactuar to finish P3....


Read the above and explain the timelines.

As someone with a degree in statistics, I can safely say that your inferential reasoning indicates nothing beyond "It took more time to complete a phase on world A".

Your reasoning may be correct, but you do not have actual numbers to validate your claim. You have guesswork, but no real data to explain the situation.

Relatively, a difference of 20+ hours might have a number of explanations for that difference; perhaps a difference in participation rates since it no longer mattered how long it takes to complete a phase when you have 8-12 more weeks before the next content drops.

[DPZ2]

... you will not be able to explain how Cactuar took 2hrs for P1 (9times Siren’s speed) and 17hrs for P2 while Siren took 18hrs for P1 and 24hrs for P2. So the claim that there was no contribution is a false claim until someone can provide data that says otherwise.

There is no data to prove that specific claim true or false, nor do I think such data will be presented to the community by SE itself.

I can provide other reasons for the situation though:

1) There are more active crafters on Cactuar than there are on Siren

2) The player-base of crafters on Siren logged in 17 hours later than those on Cactuar

3) The crafting community on Cactuar is really dedicated, and has better link-shell co-ordination than the one on Siren.

Assuming that wanderers are responsible for Cactuar's speed, why wasn't it the same for Siren? Did they start with the first letter of the alphabet and work their way to the end when choosing a world?

Not enough data, too many inferences based on nothing beyond wishful conjecture.

[Jojoya]

Read the above and explain the timelines. Also, I never said there weren't wanderers leeching or that they are contributing to the progress. They were only leeching during the 1-2hrs of the FATE times. Other than that, wanderers that remained there were helping. Else you'd have the contradiction I explained above. So now those claiming that there was no contribution from wanderers in general, would have to provide their proof. Just simply saying P3 took more than P1 and P2 is not enough unless you know exactly how long is P3 compared to P1 and P2.

Balmung's progress tells us how long Stage 3 was in comparison to Stage 1 and Stage 2. Balmung had Stage 2 completed early Wednesday morning and was at work on Stage 3. They didn't complete Stage 3 until Friday morning. It only makes sense that worlds with smaller populations should see the same progress in proportion. Guess what? We are.

I'm not saying that no wanderers contributed at all. I'm saying the contribution was negligible compared to the contribution by home world players. No world needed help in the first place when most worlds are already done with the current stages less than a week after release.

Will cross world assistance be helpful later down the road when the content is no longer fresh and interest has died down? Possibly. But SE needs to design the content to give everyone a reasonable chance to participate in building their home world's Firmament first. Only when a world is falling drastically behind should cross world access be allowed.

And by drastically behind, I mean a world doesn't have the all the old stages from previous patches completed when a new set of stages gets added in a new patch. We're not even a week into this yet and most worlds are done with the stages currently available. That's ridiculous.

[Alucard135]

As someone with a degree in statistics, I can safely say that your inferential reasoning indicates nothing beyond "It took more time to complete a phase on world A".

Your reasoning may be correct, but you do not have actual numbers to validate your claim. You have guesswork, but no real data to explain the situation.

Relatively, a difference of 20+ hours might have a number of explanations for that difference; perhaps a difference in participation rates since it no longer mattered how long it takes to complete a phase when you have 8-12 more weeks before the next content drops.

I do have the actual time stamps that I posted. Also, we did calculate how each world was progressing, which is why it was easy to determine that Siren would finish today since they were going at a rate of around roughly 23-25% each day. And I can show you that if you wanted. People only knew that P3 would be the last till next month after JP worlds finished, so your assumption of the participation rate going lower would have shown effect after the first day on Siren.

And also, the main point I was attacking was the assumption of constant relative speeds. If you assumed that, then you cannot explain the contraction in the timeline. Unless you vary that speed, which you'd need a significant variation, then no one can claim there was no contribution from other worlds.

Balmung's progress tells us how long Stage 3 was in comparison to Stage 1 and Stage 2. Balmung had Stage 2 completed early Wednesday morning and was at work on Stage 3. They didn't complete Stage 3 until Friday morning. It only makes sense that worlds with smaller populations should see the same progress in proportion. Guess what? We are.

Even if you assumed little contribution from wanderes on Balmung, this is still similar to Cactuar and Siren. You'd end up with a problem if you assumed constant relative speeds. Unless the worlds had to move at significantly different relative speeds at some days.

There is no data to prove that specific claim true or false, nor do I think such data will be presented to the community by SE itself.

I can provide other reasons for the situation though:

1) There are more active crafters on Cactuar than there are on Siren

2) The player-base of crafters on Siren logged in 17 hours later than those on Cactuar

3) The crafting community on Cactuar is really dedicated, and has better link-shell co-ordination than the one on Siren.

Assuming that wanderers are responsible for Cactuar's speed, why wasn't it the same for Siren? Did they start with the first letter of the alphabet and work their way to the end when choosing a world?

Not enough data, too many inferences based on nothing beyond wishful conjecture.

1) Hence why their completion time was quicker.
2) Then they'd have completed P1 in 1hr, which is impossible.
3) They could. Their actual speed is not what I'm calculating.

Let me rephrase my wording, since you seem to have confused it. I'm not saying that wanderers are responsible for Cactuar's speed. Nor am I saying that Cactuar finished first because of wanderers. What I'm saying is that wanderers did contribute to other worlds including Cactuar. Saying that they did not contribute at all, as some have mentioned, means a constant relative speed. Since across P2 and P3, there wasn't significant change in speed across the days.

[Jojoya]

Let me rephrase my wording, since you seem to have confused it. I'm not saying that wanderers are responsible for Cactuar's speed. Nor am I saying that Cactuar finished first because of wanderers. What I'm saying is that wanderers did contribute to other worlds including Cactuar. Saying that they did not contribute at all, as some have mentioned, means a constant relative speed. Since across P2 and P3, there wasn't significant change in speed across the days.

Let me put it plain to you.

Stop worrying about what happens on other worlds and worry about your home world instead. The low pop worlds are perfectly capable of handling their own Firmament. We don't need the outside help.

No one gets something special or different for going to a world other than their own. Nothing special or new in the way of content got added to worlds that completed Stage 3 that worlds didn't have from the start of Stage 1. All we saw were cosmetic changes to what small portion of the Firmament every world has access to.

The vast majority of worlds have already managed to or are about to complete Stage 3 less than a week after this has started. If SE decides there's an issue with the progress on some worlds compared to others later on, they can adjust things as necessary. There is no reason for players to be working on the Firmament on any world but their own unless a world is falling way behind. No one is way behind at this point.

[Alucard135]

Let me put it plain to you.

Stop worrying about what happens on other worlds and worry about your home world instead. The low pop worlds are perfectly capable of handling their own Firmament. We don't need the outside help.

No one gets something special or different for going to a world other than their own. Nothing special or new in the way of content got added to worlds that completed Stage 3 that worlds didn't have from the start of Stage 1. All we saw were cosmetic changes to what small portion of the Firmament every world has access to.

The vast majority of worlds have already managed to or are about to complete Stage 3 less than a week after this has started. If SE decides there's an issue with the progress on some worlds compared to others later on, they can adjust things as necessary. There is no reason for players to be working on the Firmament on any world but their own unless a world is falling way behind. No one is way behind at this point.

Let me put it plainly to you then. Stop spreading misinformation without any data to prove it. This is a game at the end of the day, not a war of "your world/ my world. Don't come to my world/ stay on your world. Wanderers are taking our jobs". World visiting was added for a reason and had given lots of benefits. So there is gain from visiting another world in the game. So it's only natural that others would take interest in what happens in other worlds.

[Jojoya]

Let me put it plainly to you then. Stop spreading misinformation without any data to prove it. This is a game at the end of the day, not a war of "your world/ my world. Don't come to my world/ stay on your world. Wanderers are taking our jobs". World visiting was added for a reason and had given lots of benefits. So there is gain from visiting another world in the game. So it's only natural that others would take interest in what happens in other worlds.

You're the one spreading misinformation. I look at the tracker and see that Siren is showing Stage 3 works in progress. That means they'll be done in a few hours despite the lack of assistance since SE pulled the plug on world visit to the Firmament. Clearly they are capable of completing it in a timely manner without cross world help. Or do you think SE intended every world to have this completed in just 3 days like Balmung did?

Your "logic" can be used to demonstrate how Cactuar is in desperate need of help because Balmung beat your world (and all other worlds) to completion by several hours. Time to ship Balmung players to all worlds to help out since they're all clearly incapable of completing things in a timely manner if they can't do it as fast as Balmung did.

No world needs cross world help at this point for the Firmament regardless of what insist your flawed data proves. You want to know how we really know this to be true? Because SE pulled the plug on world visit to the Firmament. They've got the real data we don't have. They know how much of a world's progress was due to wanderer contribution and how much was due to home world contribution.

If they felt that cross world contribution was still needed, they wouldn't have removed world visit. And guess what? They were right considering all worlds are complete or near completion now. Everyone is doing just fine without cross world assistance regardless of what you want to believe.

I'm not asking SE to remove world visit completely. You're right, there are a lot of content areas where the player base benefits from having access to world visit.

The Firmament is not one of those content areas. World visit proved to be a detriment, not a benefit, to this specific content and so it has been removed from this specific content for the time being. If things change in the future and SE has data showing it's actually needed again, I'm sure they'll re-enable it.

Until then, worry about Cactuar's poor progress this time around. Give your home world the help it needs so we don't need to ship Balmung over to help you guys get things done.

[Alucard135]

You're the one spreading misinformation. I look at the tracker and see that Siren is showing Stage 3 works in progress. That means they'll be done in a few hours despite the lack of assistance since SE pulled the plug on world visit to the Firmament. Clearly they are capable of completing it in a timely manner without cross world help. Or do you think SE intended every world to have this completed in just 3 days like Balmung did?

If you're relying on the lodestone announcement, then 1- it does not show exactly when a phase was completed except when both FATEs are done, so you'd have to subtract 10hrs roughly. 2- it says for Siren "works in progress" meaning P3 is done and they're just waiting for the FATEs now but it won't tell you when it was done. unlike other worlds that says "works pending" that are still progressing through P3. 3- That site updates every hour.

This is Siren's progress at 2:28pm PST. Meaning they finished P3 exactly at 12:26pm PST (which is exactly 3:26EST so I'm only off by two minutes in what I posted before). So tell me again how is it that I'm spreading misinformation? You're relaying on a website that gives the least details in a span of 1hr. So the credibility of your information is now questionable.


So now let's play a little game. At 10:26pm PST, Siren will have the second FATE pop up. So let's give it 3min for completion. So that would mean they would finish the second FATE at 10:29pm PST so at 11pm PST, the lodestone website would update showing Siren complete at 10:29pm PST. (give or take a couple of mins depending how fast they are).

Now it's funny how you shifted your entire argument to "No world needs help from other worlds". No where have I said that other worlds needed help. Your argument was that wanderer's did not contribute to any world. But you have not shown any evidence of that.