Emet-Selch Is Not That Tragic

[Puksi]

@Avidria - The Minstreling Wanderer and the description for Hades EX both call him a "hero" several times. And while I absolutely agree on the fate of his people being tragic, and I am all for remembering them, for Square to describe his deeds as heroism was jarring.

In some places in the story it felt to me like the writers were pushing sympathy for him a bit too much, and the "hero" talk when the EX was released only added to that feeling. He certainly could have been trying to delude himself--his backhanded way of speaking to us never made me feel like he was conflicted or trustworthy, though, and his actions definitely didn't give me any impression of hesitation. I do agree there was no debate among the characters that his methods were monstrous, and his atrocities were atrocities--unlike in this thread, lmao.

The problem I have with the aftermath of Vauthry's arc is that the writers never permit us to reveal the truth we saw with the Echo. Like last patch, the old mayor's adviser spoke of how Vauthry's father was essentially the "good old days" of Eulmore. It was a perfect time to tell the truth! But we just smiled and nodded. It doesn't feel heroic. We set the record straight for the Warriors Of Darkness, but we leave Vauthry to be reviled for a fate he didn't choose and couldn't fight, and we leave his mother to just be silently forgotten, as she was when Emet-Selch and her husband discussed using her body and her infant as incubators for a Lightwarden while she looked on in fear.

[Avidria]

@Avidria - The Minstreling Wanderer and the description for Hades EX both call him a "hero" several times. And while I absolutely agree on the fate of his people being tragic, and I am all for remembering them, but for Square to describe his deeds as heroism was jarring.

Huh... didn't even realize that til just now. Seems very odd actually, considering the tone of the rest of the story. The minstrel is wont to... embellish... but yeah. Definitely didn't get that impression anywhere else.

But yeah no he definitely never came off as trustworthy to me - even if he was telling full truth the whole time, it was still truth from his perspective based on what he knows and feels, and still warped by thousands of years of bitterness, grief, death, and failure. What made me kinda side eye him and wonder if he really believed what he said about our lives' value was the casual offhanded way he said it to make a point - it came off as deliberate antagonism more than anything - and then the way he reacted to us in the lead-up to the final fight. He came off to me as someone who'd maybe wanted to be wrong, and was disappointed we didn't meet his wild criteria to prove him wrong and prove we aren't worthless. ...I'm very tired so may not have worded this quite how I wanted to but that's the gist of that thought process.

Looking back I do wish we had more closure on things like what happened to Vauthry - though there are actually a lot of things from ARR to now that I really wish our character had reacted or acted differently in response to. There's a lot there that should be said or done that isn't, and the other way around, and yeah... I'm kinda hoping the Vauthry thing does come up again at some point. 'Cause that was messed up for sure.

One of the only times I remember it happening, and please I welcome corrections because it's been four months, was in relation to his fellow ancients. "The victor shall write the tale and the vanquished shall become it's villain," is a line he uses right before the final battle and I think it provides all the context one needs in these regards.

Hmm yeah that's a fair point too. I guess that sorta does go back to his moral relativism comment - whoever wins gets to decide who was right, and what story gets told. He probably would be seen as a hero by the ones who were already planning to sacrifice all this life to bring their people back to begin with - he'd have basically done what they were going to do anyway, just... more violently. Even among the Ancients, though, not everybody felt that way - that's how we got Hydaelyn in the first place. But they're dead and he isn't, so he's taken it upon himself to decide who's right and whose lives are most important.

He's a bit of a hypocrite, really.