Seeds of 7.0 and on?

[Mornyr]

Hmm, well since there's a bit of talk about the whole halo thing going on, I'd like to share my thoughts on it and a couple of possibly related things. May be a little convoluted, but bare with me here.

So first off, the area in question where we see what could be the halo as a stand-alone object, is Lahabrea's...workshop, basically, I guess you could call it. And everywhere else in his area of the Akadaemia is full of weapons or monsters of some kind, basically aggressive or offense related Concepts. Stands to reason, to me at least, that the halo itself could be some form of weapon-type Concept.

Now, going all the way back to ARR, in the Praetorium Lahabrea appears and starts talking about the Heart of Sabik, "an enigma whose surface even the vaunted scholars of ancient Allag failed to scratch". So seems pretty clear cut to me that the Allagans obviously had nothing to do with it's creation. We're also not told where it actually comes from. And all mention of it seems to have disappeared into the aether after defeating Ultimate Weapon, but that's another story.

He also mentions how its magic had 'lain dormant for eons' and just before casting Ultima tells us to behold a sliver of his god's power. So Ultima should be related to Zodiark in some fashion, therefore we can rule out that it's something from another star like Omega was. There's also talk about using the Primal energies to 'quicken' the Heart, which also sounds a lot like that side quest Fay was talking about, with the rope and how you use the random Blob to fuel our subpar Creation magick and make a trendy cloak for ourselves.

My current number one theory, is that the Heart of Sabik is something that survived the Sundering, much like the portions of Amaurot in the Tempest (at the Sahagins). Also seems very likely it was actually something created by Lahabrea, as from many of the things we've heard or seen, he seems like the most martial/aggressive of the Ascians, and we can be fairly certain by this point that he had a rather major role in creating the initial Concepts behind Zodiark, if not more.
Which also makes me re-evaluate something else he says in those cutscenes, namely he uses "my god" a couple of times, which in retrospect, could be taken as him referring to Zodiark as his creation, 'this is the god I made' type of thing. Though naturally he could also just be using it in the sense of 'the god I worship/was Tempered by' as well.

So I can't help but think that the Heart of Sabik, and Ultima, was either something he created or was working on pre-Zodiark (mentioned below) and that he might have used it as something of a prototype for the finished product, or built upon it at any rate. Having the ring/halo as the odd-one-out in his weapons display just seems kind of strange to me if it isn't a weapon itself.

I'm kind of tired, so sorry if it's a mess and I can try and clarify my thoughts for anyone if they need it, but in conclusion, I'm left wondering this:
We know that Zodiark was a Created being. He had a very deliberate design and purpose, most obviously to halt the destruction of the planet and later to return life to it. Not entirely sure if he just didn't have enough power after being made, or if they had to rush his Creation just so they could stop the calamity, as from some of the dialogue it seems pretty clear they were pressed for time and barely halted the destruction in time anyway.
However, neither of those purposes requires the use of any type of violent force, or weaponised Concept. In that case, why did they feel the need to grant Zodiark so much destructive power? It can't be because of Hydaelyn, as she came after Zodiarks 'design' and Creation. A threat from outside would be a great explanation for that.

Though i'll admit some parts of what I said might be considered a bit of a stretch here and there. And if you start getting into amendments being possible (which we have no evidence to suggest they aren't) than it's a whole new can of worms, least of which is that you would also have to admit to the possibility that Hydaelyn herself is an amendment to Zodiark. Even with that though, it still feels to me like they gave him a bunch of destructive power straight up. But maybe i'm just seeing what I want to.

Somewhat randomly, there's actually an NPC in Tempest version of Amaurot who talks about Lahabrea briefly, mentioning him as "a master of every recognized creation magick, possessed of boundless imagination and willpower to realize impossibly complex concepts". Now this is just a gut feeling of mine, but if someone like Lahabrea seems to be were to have mastered every recognized creation magick, he seems like the kind of person who would try to take it one step further and create possibly...the 'ultimate magic'? Or the ultimate Concept, I guess it would be back then. Kind of makes me wonder if he had been working on some kind of version of a Zodiark-like being before they even knew they needed one.

[MrThinker]

So apparently i'm way over word cap, i'll add the rest in a second post.

Just a quick and friendly reminder that you can edit your posts past the initial post character cap.
Simply write out your post, cut out enough text so it can be posted, enter edit mode, and the paste the rest back in.

[Mornyr]

Just a quick and friendly reminder that you can edit your posts past the initial post character cap.
Simply write out your post, cut out enough text so it can be posted, enter edit mode, and the paste the rest back in.

Thanks for the heads up I had no idea haha

[fay2]

Now, going all the way back to ARR, in the Praetorium Lahabrea appears and starts talking about the Heart of Sabik, "an enigma whose surface even the vaunted scholars of ancient Allag failed to scratch".

Heart of Sabik is certainly Amourtian in origin the later line you mention were Lahabrea states its "a sliver of my god's power" pretty much solidifies it as Amourtian.

He also mentions how its magic had 'lain dormant for eons' and just before casting Ultima tells us to behold a sliver of his god's power. So Ultima should be related to Zodiark in some fashion.

Its likely another component concept to Zoidark like the halos, but you got there to that conclusion yourself later on in you post.

Which also makes me re-evaluate something else he says in those cutscenes, namely he uses "my god" a couple of times, which in retrospect, could be taken as him referring to Zodiark as his creation, 'this is the god I made' type of thing. Though naturally he could also just be using it in the sense of 'the god I worship/was Tempered by' as well.

I'd go with "my god" there being the ownership of the god not being owned by the god in Lahabrea's case. That is why I said in the previous post.

This is would explain why Lahabrea sees Hydealyn as a parasite to Zoidark. Zoidark's concept was Lahabrea's after all.

Lahabrea seems the type to be quite narcissistic to be honest. Lahabrea may have actually been a bit bitter about someone "improving" his concept.

there's actually an NPC in Tempest version of Amaurot who talks about Lahabrea briefly, mentioning him as "a master of every recognized creation magick, possessed of boundless imagination and willpower to realize impossibly complex concepts".

His "boundless imagination" was found lacking when it came to Zodiark. Seems like maybe a lack of empathy in the concepts scope the how will this effect things after primary concept design is achieved. What are the people left with after Zoidark passes over. a smolding mess?

I'm left wondering this:
We know that Zodiark was a Created being. He had a very deliberate design and purpose, most obviously to halt the destruction of the planet and later to return life to it.Not entirely sure if he just didn't have enough power after being made, or if they had to rush his Creation just so they could stop the calamity, as from some of the dialogue it seems pretty clear they were pressed for time and barely halted the destruction in time anyway.

We have knowledge of how well hasty summoning miss the intended mark just look at Lakshmi (Lady of Bliss).

The concept of Zoidark was to limited in scope to start with they wanted something to right the laws governing the star and halt the destruction. They got a halt {as design intended}, but the devil in the detail was they want it to be the way it was before everything started to go to hell in a hand basket, but were focused on the immediate problem of stopping it getting worse.

The "later to return life to it" was the oops, an after thought that the concept was lacking in scope to fix problems cased to the star.

However, neither of those purposes requires the use of any type of violent force, or weaponised Concept. In that case, why did they feel the need to grant Zodiark so much destructive power? It can't be because of Hydaelyn, as she came after Zodiarks 'design' and Creation. A threat from outside would be a great explanation for that.

Indeed
The spell ultima is devastating and we experience only a sliver of Zoidark's destructive power.
why was that needed?

if you start getting into amendments being possible (which we have no evidence to suggest they aren't) than it's a whole new can of worms, least of which is that you would also have to admit to the possibility that Hydaelyn herself is an amendment to Zodiark.

I'm of the opinion Amendments are possible we have a few things that could be placed as lesser scale examples of it's possibility. here are a few:

◾Primal Tempering (we even have one case in Bahamut with Phoenix of primal tempering primal)
◾The Resonant (Zenos & Fordola)
◾Maybe even Midgardsormr sealing of the WoL's power

If your going to ignore the fact Amourtians could submit amendments to standing excepted concepts.

[Alleo]

To create her yes
not "fuel" her

create and fuel different things

it took 1/3 of the Amaurotians to create Zodiark
it took another 1/3 to fuel Zodiark to return life to the planet.

It took half of the surviving Amarotines to create Zodiark and make him stop the calamity. Which means that they were already used not only for creation but for actions. They told us that he had to rewrite reality to stop it too. But afterwards when the dust settled they noticed that the world was kinda death so they needed another half of the remaining ones to change that.

Hydealyn was seemingly only getting sacrifices from the ones that summoned her and if the rewritten reality just needed something there to control it, then I dont see a problem here. Her power is less but with sundering Zodiark she made that even. And since the laws and everything were already changed she may just have needed to take over the place without any more power at all.

[fay2]

It took half of the surviving Amarotines to create Zodiark

No it wasn't half, but you are right I've understated the amount of Amarotines that volunteered themselves in the creation of Zoidark as 1/3 not the almost half stated by Hythlodaeus

( I'm honestly not sure where 1/3 comes from maybe something said by Emet, ultimately unimportant )

Increasing the amount of creation energy use in Zoidarks creation only emphases' the disparity in the creation energy put forward for "the will to a star" between Zoidark and Hydealyn.

how about a visualization in a pie cart

and make him stop the calamity. Which means that they were already used not only for creation but for actions. They told us that he had to rewrite reality to stop it too.

Considering we don't know the laws of reality prior to Zoidark rewriting them. I'd call that speculation too.

For example Zoidarks rewrite of reality may have been to make the Lifestream and used creation/life energy didn't return to planet prior to the rewrite it just returned to the user or just became a blob or some such. So its possible Zoidark maintained the creation/life energy as a hole offered up in creation.

But afterwards when the dust settled they noticed that the world was kinda death so they needed another half of the remaining ones to change that.

Those lives may have became "fuel" for the Lifestream to flow in the new rewritten reality.

Hydealyn was seemingly only getting sacrifices from the ones that summoned her and if the rewritten reality just needed something there to control it, then I dont see a problem here.

That seems counterintuitive to me honestly.

Her power is less but with sundering Zodiark she made that even. And since the laws and everything were already changed she may just have needed to take over the place without any more power at all.

again the murals are ignored

[Alleo]

No it wasn't half, but you are right I've understated the amount of Amarotines that volunteered themselves in the creation of Zoidark as 1/3 not the almost half stated by Hythlodaeus

I am confused? The screenshots you are posting are exactly saying what I was saying?

Nearly half of the surviving ones gave their life to create Zodiark and he managed to stop the calamity. But they realized that the planet was kinda death and another half of those that are still alive then gave their life. So 75% of those that survived the initial attack gave their lifes. I mean Hythlo states in his very sentence that Zodiark after being summoned was able to stop the stuff from happening -> taking action.

So 25% of those survived and the solution to sacrifice new life divided the survivors and thus Hydaeyln was only born from <25% of the souls. This is already way less than what Zodiark got and we simply dont know how many took Hydealyn side and how many took Zodiarks side. But it was at least a lot less than what they got with Zodiark. And if we assume that its 50/50, thus 12.5% and somehow all of them sacrificied themselves to summon Hydealyn then it would still be out of balance in power scale. Because she would have still just gotten 12.5% while Zodiark at that time held the power of 75% in him. This in turn would make it quite logical why she then smashed him to pieces instead of outright killing him. Because if they were somehow equal in power (which means that Zodiark lost the power thus also the souls...which makes getting them back kinda impossible anyway) then why not just kill him?

The murals are drawn afterwards. We dont know who did it but I doubt that this was drawn directly at the time when the world was still whole. I mean if those were really fighting then why would someone take the time to draw a cave painting? Would Ancient ones go down to such a state that they would draw such a thing in a cave? This honestly feels more like people after the sundering who either remembered the events still or got told about it. We simply dont know how accurate it is.

[fay2]

The screenshots you are posting are exactly saying what I was saying?

No. You've amended it to "Nearly half" in the last post by you so now yes, but "Nearly half" dose not equal "half" you posted in the 1st.

I am confused?

Yes. A little here is why. i'll bold it for your post.

Nearly half of the surviving ones gave their life to create Zodiark and he managed to stop the calamity. But they realized that the planet was kinda death and another half of those that are still alive then gave their life. So 75% of those that survived the initial attack gave their lifes. I mean Hythlo states in his very sentence that Zodiark after being summoned was able to stop the stuff from happening -> taking action.

So 25% of those survived and the solution to sacrifice new life divided the survivors

removing the 25% for "new life" from the total of 75% you stated you get 50%

50% = Half
Half is not Nearly half
(Semantics unimportant)

So on to something more interesting speculating the creation energy/life force use in Hydaeyln's creation.

and thus Hydaeyln was only born from <25% of the souls. This is already way less than what Zodiark got and we simply dont know how many took Hydealyn side and how many took Zodiarks side. But it was at least a lot less than what they got with Zodiark. And if we assume that its 50/50, thus 12.5% and somehow all of them sacrificied themselves to summon Hydealyn then it would still be out of balance in power scale.

I'd speculate the member that left the Convocation of Fourteen represents the portion of the of Amarotines that created Hydealyn.

So 1/14th of the total surviving Amarotines or in percentages roughly 7.143%

7.1% +/-
Plus or Minus, because they may have moved others to their cause or some may have been move to volunteer to bring new life to the planet.
All honesty tho I'd say 7.1% + more likely to have more people with buyers remorse over Zoidark.

Because she would have still just gotten 12.5% while Zodiark at that time held the power of 75% in him. This in turn would make it quite logical why she then smashed him to pieces instead of outright killing him.

That is if see them as needing to be to separate beings that fort, and not an amendment in some way and the fighting being figurative for the amendment taking control against protections in original creation to prevent alterations in core concept.

Because if they were somehow equal in power (which means that Zodiark lost the power thus also the souls...which makes getting them back kinda impossible anyway) then why not just kill him?

Something fundamental in Hydealyn's concept?
by accounts of the Unbroken. Zoidark is dead. What dose death mater to Ascians way of thinking?

going back to this

Because if they were somehow equal in power?

was thinking about this

Zoidarks rewrite of reality may have been to make the Lifestream

Now to heap on a bit more speculation on it.
If Hydealyn's concept was to rewrite Zoidarks control of the Lifestream to something under Hydealyn then you may lessen the disparity between the two.

The murals are drawn afterwards. We dont know who did it but I doubt that this was drawn directly at the time when the world was still whole.

Yes I Agree its an account of what happened so it would have to be painted on the 1st after the sundering. It is unlikely you'll find the exact replica on the other shards unless they where created by the unbroken or some other shard hoper.
It is more likely we may find on another shard a similar set of depictions but with a slightly different story that could be interpreted from them and seeing both may give a fuller picture of what the story they depict.

I mean if those were really fighting then why would someone take the time to draw a cave painting?

That was where I was going with this

if Zoidark and Hydaeyln are fighting why would the 3 unbroken leave the effected sundered area they must have left before the "conflict" between the two arose.

Would Ancient ones go down to such a state that they would draw such a thing in a cave?

Why dose any artist choose the medium they work in?

This honestly feels more like people after the sundering who either remembered the events still or got told about it. We simply dont know how accurate it is.

Yes more so what we were told it depicts should be treated as suspect . However that dose not dismiss it.

[MrThinker]

50% = Half
Half is not Nearly half

As a rebuttal, the phrase 'nearly half' I, and a lot of people I know, use generally to say "it's not exactly half, but its close enough to half that you can use 50% for an approximate amount to calculate stuff with, and if anyone disagrees they're thinking too much into it". Not to say that it is 100% the meaning many others may intend when they use the phrase, but it's what I have experienced generally speaking.

As an extra note regarding the power levels of Zodiark and Hydaelyn, it was stated by one of the lore team (either Koji or Oda I don't remember) that Zodiark was indeed the more powerful one of the 2 before the Sundering.

Why does any artist choose the medium they work in?

I believe Emet-Selch implies that the people who made the murals were sundered Ancients who 'half-remembered' what they had gone through. Which also implies it happened after the Sundering.

[Linadae]

I believe Emet-Selch implies that the people who made the murals were sundered Ancients who 'half-remembered' what they had gone through. Which also implies it happened after the Sundering.

World lore from ARR confirms that there are fragments of Pre-Sundering memories floating around. From the names that Keepers of the Moon use (Most predate the Sundering) There was also talk of time before the Calamity where 'Gods walked Eorzea' but they fled before the First Umbral Era abandoning mortals to the Calamities. To a Sundered, Amaurotines would certainly look like gods in a fractured memory.