Thread: Seeds of 7.0 and on?

Originally Posted by MrThinker

Are you talking about the cave paintings we briefly gloss over with Y'shtola in the hideout of the Children of the Everlasting Dark? or the paintings in the Qitana ravel before the 2nd boss? (unless those dont exist and Im just conflating the caves with bardaam's mettle.)

The ones we gloss over with Yshtola, there were 3 paintings. The other cave paintings with Zodiark and Hydaelyn have been discussed a lot.

As far as not "attacking the poster" My point was that there was no agreement prior so trying to argue about it again OVER and OVER isn't going to change that due to cultural values and such - there was pages of it in prior posts. It's problematic writing because of that. So if you're going to take it as a personal attack for not "Getting it" then the blame solely lies on yourself. It was a point I didn't want to repeat because it just adds into it. But yet here I have to state it again. :/

There's plenty of other arguments to use until there's more of expansion of solidifying said writing.

Originally Posted by QT_Melon

The ones we gloss over with Yshtola, there were 3 paintings. The other cave paintings with Zodiark and Hydaelyn have been discussed a lot.

These are just paintings of important scenes from the history of the first and the last one was done about Ardbert and his group thanks to their acts and later destroyed because of them causing the flood.

You wrote your post about an argument that mostly has no part in this discussion after someone wrote that sundering is not killing. And as far as we know this is true. Emet shows this with Ryne where the other Ryne is just an identical clone and people have to survive that otherwise there would be no life today. So its not murdering at all. You may want to argue that its as bad but just because there was no agreement in the other thread does not mean that people should stop posting their view on this in other threads.

And again I am not sure why you posted it at all, then have me making points and arguments against it and then ignoring them completely.

A brief aside to the red flame in the dungeon, that was likely done for dramatic effect to enhance the world was on fire comments made and not some outside threat.

Going Left to right in the cave:






The last one is obviously the 1st WoL party

Well Hydealyn is probably also not summoned now and seemingly exist somewhere else than us so imo she cant sunder anymore. (Which is why she probably also not put any of us in danger either, since normally primals need aether to keep existing)

Well we still dont know how the complete universe works. The sundering seemingly only happened with our planet, because Middy still is immortal and only came to the source when Hydealyn already was in charge. So maybe there is some kind of dimension between the universe which could have hidden them. Was it ever for example stated since when the place where the Ascians without bodies flee to existed? If not then maybe that was were they landed and be protected and its also why they choose to go back there. (But pure speculation on my part)

About your pictures: Well Hydaelyn and Zodiark also look the same on the cave paintings (either because the ones drawing it wanted them to look the same or those summoning her are a bit lazy). It is interesting that they look much more different here than in the drawings, so I wonder if that is the look of them being inactive?

To clarify my own post... Three of the people who summoned Zoidark are still alive as of the start of Shadowbringers. Emet-Selch, Lahabrea, and Elidibus. They were part of the Convocation of Thirteen that came up with Zoidark's concept and summoned him with aether donated to them by half of the surviving Ancient population. So somehow, the people who summoned Zoidark all survived summoning him. This confirms it is possible to create a concept and use aether other then the concept creator's aether to fuel it. It also means the Ascians can tell us what the Concept behind Zoidark is since... they're actually alive to explain it to us. And they could all be Tempered by him.

None of the people who summoned Hydaelyn live past her summoning. All their aether went into fueling the concept they came up with. Unlike with Zoidark, no one is around to tell us what the Concept behind Hydaelyn actually is. The best everyone has been able to do is guess what Hydaelyn's Concept is, based on what they saw her do (fight Zoidark, Sunder him and the Star, become the new will of the Star). The death of Hydaelyn's Summoners also means they would have been dead long before Hydaelyn would be able to Temper them (if Hydaelyn can in fact do that).


Tangential to all of that is what we have known for a long time about Primal Summoning, particularly since HW. The "will" behind the people involved in summoning a Primal effects what that Primal is like. Titan summoned by the Kobalds collectively has different motivations then Titan summoned by just Ga Bu. And both of those are based on the same Concept, it's just two different versions of it. However, both versions are just as much the "Titan" Concept as the the other version is. Even the Ancients themselves tell us how getting distracted while Creating a Concept can change what that concept is like (Creating a Lion and getting distracted by a Hawk gives the Lion Concept hawk wings.).

So you've got Zoidark, the Concept. Which is getting summoned by people who have watched their entire world be destroyed around them by their nightmares come to life through their own Creation Magics. And they're using the aether of a population that has also gone through that. I think it's very probable that the Zoidark Concept gets... distorted by all the fears and desires of the people summoning it to be not quite what they planned the Concept to be. Kind like how you can have two primal Titans that are both Titan, with different motivations.

Hydaelyn's summoning conditions are a lot more stable then Zoidark's are. Or at least, the state of the Star is a lot more stable. By the time Hydaelyn is summoned, Zoidark has stopped the Calamity and rejuvenated the Star. Hydaelyn is Created in an environment that is most likely a lot less... frantic... then the one Zoidark was Created in. Zoidark was summoned to fix the Star right now. Hydaelyn was summoned to mitigate a problem that could happen in the future. And Hydaelyn is ultimately summoned for much more philosophical reasons then Zoidark was summoned.

Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

To clarify my own post... Three of the people who summoned Zoidark are still alive as of the start of Final Fantasy XIV.

Fixed it for you. Lahabrea is dead by the end of Heavensward at earliest, Stormblood at latest.

Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

They were part of the Convocation of Thirteen.

I know you mean "The Convocation of Fourteen that was down to 13 members", and this is more a minor nitpick than anything, but I don't think the name of the group changed even with them down a member.

None of the people who summoned Hydaelyn live past her summoning. All their aether went into fueling the concept they came up with.

To be fair, this seems more like an assumption based on what Hythlodaeus says. We have no concrete proof that ALL of those behind the summoning sacrificed their aether to her. For example, if our Ancient self was part of that group, wouldn't our souls also be used as fuel for Her? But here our character exists, 8 times rejoined. So either we didn't sacrifice ourselves in the summoning, or we weren't part of the group.

Agree with the rest of your post though, but at the same time, while Zodiark's summoning could have been influenced by fear, we still have no proof that he was indeed different then imagined.

Originally Posted by MrThinker

f our Ancient self was part of that group, wouldn't our souls also be used as fuel for Her? But here our character exists, 8 times rejoined. So either we didn't sacrifice ourselves in the summoning, or we weren't part of the group.

Or Hydaelyn wasn't designed to work like like Zoidark does. As far as I can tell, there's nothing saying that Primal's can't expend the aether used to power them. Just that it's usually not something they naturally want to do. However, we already know Hydaelyn is someplace that is constantly receiving and expunging aether (lifestream/underworld) all by itself.

I can see Hydaelyn's summoners looking at Zoidark and then making a Concept that doesn't have his same "hoard all the souls he can" impulses... or a primal that values keeping people alive more... all you'd need would be a Primal with "Rebirth" or something tied to it's concept and it might decide to let the original souls powering it go once it's got enough new ones. And then just repeat that...

I agree with MrThinker.

Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

Or Hydaelyn wasn't designed to work like like Zoidark does. As far as I can tell, there's nothing saying that Primal's can't expend the aether used to power them. Just that it's usually not something they naturally want to do. However, we already know Hydaelyn is someplace that is constantly receiving and expunging aether (lifestream/underworld) all by itself.

I can see Hydaelyn's summoners looking at Zoidark and then making a Concept that doesn't have his same "hoard all the souls he can" impulses... or a primal that values keeping people alive more... all you'd need would be a Primal with "Rebirth" or something tied to it's concept and it might decide to let the original souls powering it go once it's got enough new ones. And then just repeat that...

And whose souls would she eat? Unknowing souls of the dead? Would not that be against their will? In that case she would be worse than Zodiark who kept souls of willing sacrifices.