Square Enix, please think about both Casual AND Hardcore crafters..

[Ryoutoshi]

Wooo boy. Finally read through this fustercluck of a thread.

Not even going to try and hold a conversation with you all but I feel like leaving a bit here.

Like a blog, if you will.

Take a fighting game for example.

The main thing a player adds to a fighting game vs a bot is RNG. A bot at the end of the day will do what it does in a situation based on programming. Once you figure out it's situational actions, you can pretty easily wreck it. Better bots have more variety but nothing on the RNG of a player. A player has situational awareness too. But can choose to act differently at any point. To a skilled player, another player is an RNG filled challenge to overcome with the tools they have.

Crafting with RNG can be skill based depending on the skills available. Using your skills in a way that rides the situation in the most optimal way can be a skill based process and is literally fighting games in a nutshell.

And before someone says something ignorant like, "Reaction time is the main part of fighting games." Every pro fighting gamer will tell you the prediction based on situation in neutral is the key factor. A whiff punish for example is not a reaction most times. It's baited out with movement.

Saying, "RNG is not difficulty in crafting," or, "You can't have skill in a numbers game," is at best a half truth. And at the end of the day, even raids are a numbers game. If Boss HP - (Dps*enrage timer in seconds) > 0 you lose. Not meeting the dps and failing at 1-5%? Pad stats with gear/use your toolkit better/hope your party gets more fire 3 procs (as an example) assuming everyone was optimal already. And yes, if you're doing well or your gear is at a certain point then it makes your procs less important. But now we come back to crafting. And, oh look, that's basically what 2.0-3.0 crafting was.

You rode the RNG to victory or geared up and still rode it but at a better curve. Every craft was like a puzzle I wanted to clear. Every time my procs fucked me over at 18% efficiency, I had a long hard look at my skills and remaining cp. If I was SKILLED with my understanding and manipulation of the situation, I might still pull out a 90-100%. And that felt fantastic to achieve.

No macro could save you. No guide could walk you through that specific moment in your craft. It's just you, your understanding of your skills, and how much you really didn't want it to NQ. No it's not that hard. But neither is not standing where you shouldn't in a fight honestly.

Post limit.

[Ryoutoshi]

I don't care about this hardcore vs casual bs you all keep whining about. But RNG based crafting if done correctly is a viable skill based process that should not be fear-mongered just because you don't want to ever fail because of bad luck you might not be able to overcome to the point of 100% efficiency.

Even if RNG gave you no procs at all you could get maybe 60-80% on the hardest crafts back in the day. Pretty good for what amounts to a 2min rotation that had no chance for you to apply any deeper understanding. You failed, you got mats, and tried again. Garuntee you still progressed faster than the raiders you all in this boat love to compare with. Go ask them how often they wipe per clear on current content before they pad their gear to cover for issues. Or how long it takes for them to put together a party that could get the clear. Or how much it sucks to do everything right but your party screw you from your clear.

This argument is ridiculous at it's core.

[Abyraz]

I have similar feelings.

But first, I would like to note that I completely agree with the points people have made about RNGs negative aspects in regard to crafting. Mainly:
- Requiring a good/ex at the appropriate times to ensure a successful craft does not equate to challenge, or skill.
- longer rotations (where rng has a chance to balance out) are tedious

To simplify things: At its core, crafting(in ff14) was a gambling mini game where RNG could be mitigated by gear and starting quality.
That has clearly changed over the years, and in some ways that is probably a good thing, but it has some down sides too.

It seems to me that the designers are in the situation where they are trying to figure out what kind of system crafting should be. Without speculating to what each system would look like, here are my thoughts as a systems designer:
- Challenging math mini-game tend to be, well, 'mathy'; likely push the majority of crafters to look up the answers. Running sims and making your own macros can be enjoyable to some, but in the end there are very few best answers.
- Going back to old way of praying for a Ing+GS -> good/ex bb would not be welcome. People's dislike of this kind of rng is valid.
- Maybe a softening of RNG is the answer, more frequent variance in condition, but not as extreme. But the challenge there is preventing the rotation from dragging out. Would not be a simple fix.
- perhaps an entirely new type of system. anything could go here, but personally I wouldn't like to see any kind of twitch game play. Leave that to combat.

RNG can be a good thing, just needs to be done in such a way that folks don't feel they are at the mercy of it.

edit
one note in regard to marcos.

Mass crafting without macros is not a world I wish to see.
However, I personally, I think being able to hq the facet stuff 100%nq mats with a macro using 5.0 gear is a touch silly. I don't think it would be the end of the world if some hq mats were needed to macro successfully with progressively more required as gear is less optimal.

/edit

[CookiesNCreams]

Just completely HQ’d 100%’d a level 80 Ishgard restoration collectable craft.....and, as you’d expect, they are not hard in the slightest. Still easy and macro’able. 5.2 is your last chance, Yoshida....

[NanaWiloh]

Just completely HQ’d 100%’d a level 80 Ishgard restoration collectable craft.....and, as you’d expect, they are not hard in the slightest. Still easy and macro’able. 5.2 is your last chance, Yoshida....

He said 5.2 was bringing more changes to crafting. Never said 5.11 was bringing them...

"This patch also sees the beginning of the overhaul to crafting and gathering, with further updates planned for Patch 5.2." Straight from the 5.1 patch notes..

[Ksenia]

Just completely HQ’d 100%’d a level 80 Ishgard restoration collectable craft.....and, as you’d expect, they are not hard in the slightest. Still easy and macro’able. 5.2 is your last chance, Yoshida....

And I had 11 stacks of IQ, Greats strides and an Excellent Proc for the Byregot and it still only took the quality to 70% with 2200 Craftsmen and 2000 Control. So keep belly aching. I doubt they will make it harder, just nerf your 13 slot penta meld.

[CookiesNCreams]

And I had 11 stacks of IQ, Greats strides and an Excellent Proc for the Byregot and it still only took the quality to 70% with 2200 Craftsmen and 2000 Control. So keep belly aching. I doubt they will make it harder, just nerf your 13 slot penta meld.

I’m not going to arbitrarily “nerf” myself just because you say so, lol. Come on, that’s silly. It goes without saying that it should be hard even with max melds. Anyways, like I said, 5.2 is really the last straw.

He said 5.2 was bringing more changes to crafting. Never said 5.11 was bringing them...

"This patch also sees the beginning of the overhaul to crafting and gathering, with further updates planned for Patch 5.2." Straight from the 5.1 patch notes..

I know. Just figured I would post a kind reminder.

[Ksenia]

I’m not going to arbitrarily “nerf” myself just because you say so, lol. Come on, that’s silly.

Why would you, Then you wouldn't have anything to complain about because lets be real. You don't want it to be harder, you want to brag about how you made it easy because you are all alpha crafter and stuff. I'm done with you now.

[Liam_Harper]

And I had 11 stacks of IQ, Greats strides and an Excellent Proc for the Byregot and it still only took the quality to 70% with 2200 Craftsmen and 2000 Control. So keep belly aching. I doubt they will make it harder, just nerf your 13 slot penta meld.

That's actually impossible. A max IQ 2000 control Great strides Excellent Brygots is almost 30000 quality with no Inno/Ingen and something like 70k with. The collectibles have a 40k bar. I've done a lot of manual crafting and know the output of Brygots very well.

Don't make things up to prove your point.

[Callinon]

The main thing a player adds to a fighting game vs a bot is RNG.

Do you... do you honestly think fighting game players choose their actions randomly? I mean... seriously?