Can we please put Coils of Bahamut in normal raid roulette?

[Havenchild]

but thats not what you can expect in DF...

While I understand your valid argument, I don't think any single one of those things directly matters largely because none of which you pointed out is somehow avoided in later content with similar mechanics to coil. You get the same terribles if they are gonna exist regardless and you boot/kick or disband accordingly. Here's another idea, if you and anyone was THAT worried, that it can't somehow be done, then simply implement the same lock that already exists on roulettes when new content is added, they need to beat the fight before the roulette is active. Anyone whose already did coils will be in the DF pool. Also ftr, free gear you get from MSQ already out levels coils ilvl130 cap. It's fear mongering to express that the average player on DF will both:

1) Not meet the minimum ilvl for coil
And
2) Also not be over ilvl and synced down

That's just not as common as anyone tries to point out and if you gate the roulette for those that haven't beaten it, you lose nothing as now people will simply move to unlock it again as they do every single time normals are added. What a better time then the lull of a non raid season (like now) where people can be invested into something again. These fights are fairly zerg friendly but most haven't went in recently to see that.

Based on all you said, I can confirm you haven't run duties without your friends or FC mates for years.

Nice troll. Too much incompetence though.

[JohnSpawnVFX]

While I understand your valid argument, I don't think any single one of those things directly matters largely because none of which you pointed out is somehow avoided in later content with similar mechanics to coil. You get the same terribles if they are gonna exist regardless and you boot/kick or disband accordingly. Here's another idea, if you and anyone was THAT worried, that it can't somehow be done, then simply implement the same lock that already exists on roulettes when new content is added, they need to beat the fight before the roulette is active. Anyone whose already did coils will be in the DF pool. Also ftr, free gear you get from MSQ already out levels coils ilvl130 cap. It's fear mongering to express that the average player on DF will both:

1) Not meet the minimum ilvl for coil
And
2) Also not be over ilvl and synced down

That's just not as common as anyone tries to point out and if you gate the roulette for those that haven't beaten it, you lose nothing as now people will simply move to unlock it again as they do every single time normals are added. What a better time then the lull of a non raid season (like now) where people can be invested into something again. These fights are fairly zerg friendly but most haven't went in recently to see that.




Nice troll. Too much incompetence though.

I only see a troll here: a contrarian one who's insulting other posters by calling them fearmongers and apparently is unaware of the current state of DF population.

You're starting to sound like the typical raider troll who claims everything is easy because they only run duties with their orange buddies.

[Havenchild]

I only see a troll here: a contrarian one who's insulting other posters by calling them fearmongers and apparently is unaware of the current state of DF population.

You're starting to sound like the typical raider troll who claims everything is easy because they only run duties with their orange buddies.

I call it for what it is absolutely. Fear-mongering by the forums for no true reason. If your opinion to all of my valid arguments is that, I only run content with lolorange parse buddies /FC mates/ friends and don't touch DF literally at all, then your reading comprehension sucks.

DF is not the travesty people claim it is and as someone who is more of a loner/puger of the community, and has actually did this content post 5.0, I literally fit the description of someone who can give the most honest assessment in this thread.

I've been playing since 2.0 beta and have DF/PF'd damn near everything in this game the moment it came out. Battle Mentor, that actually helps people with recommendations in content on all levels. Have actually completed all content but ult, pre-nerf & post-nerf. Eden Savage downed in Week2 on PF alone (if anyone thinks this is easy, I got news for you)

I've been around. If anyone is seriously doubting my credentials, I invite you to explore my lodestone. My post aren't troll or close to. They are honest assessments of the content and I am more than sure some of these naysayers would agree with my perspective if they actually tried these fights in today's state of game.

[HyoMinPark]

I call it for what it is absolutely. Fear-mongering by the forums for no true reason. If your opinion to all of my valid arguments is that, I only run content with lolorange parse buddies /FC mates/ friends and don't touch DF literally at all, then your reading comprehension sucks.

DF is not the travesty people claim it is and as someone who is more of a loner/puger of the community, and has actually did this content post 5.0, I literally fit the description of someone who can give the most honest assessment in this thread.

I've been playing since 2.0 beta and have DF/PF'd damn near everything in this game the moment it came out. Battle Mentor, that actually helps people with recommendations in content on all levels. Have actually completed all content but ult, pre-nerf & post-nerf. Eden Savage downed in Week2 on PF alone (if anyone thinks this is easy, I got news for you)

I've been around. If anyone is seriously doubting my credentials, I invite you to explore my lodestone. My post aren't troll or close to. They are honest assessments of the content and I am more than sure some of these naysayers would agree with my perspective if they actually tried these fights in today's state of game.

You call it fear-mongering; I call it being realistic. I’m sorry if that offends you.

DF is not this sunshine-and-rainbows place where people smoothly complete all types of content; where people don’t struggle to grasp simple mechanics; where people actually listen to advice more often than ignore it; or a place where I think the Coils belong. You are clearly an individual who is over-faithful when it comes to the average DF experience, and I don’t know if that’s delusion, denial, or just willful ignorance on your part. If DF wasn’t a mess more times than not on any piece of content that presents a remote challenge, the Tales of the DF thread wouldn’t exist. People don’t create a megathread for when things go smoothly.

Read carefully Nestama’s posts about how people want quick and easy clears in their daily roulettes—because I feel as if you’re willfully ignoring those. And then try to guarantee me how “quick and easy” something like T9, T11, T12, or T13 would be. I’d doubt players could even do half of those fights without wiping and then subsequently Vote Abandoning—if they don’t just leave right on the spot as people do for EX primals. Since you claim to be a Battle Mentor, surely you’ve gotten at least one of those if you’ve bothered to touch Mentor Roulette.

Just because some of the Coils can be facerolled doesn’t mean they all belong in a roulette. If people’s purpose for running them is for the story, DF isn’t going to wait for them to get out of those cutscenes; they aren’t short. Best solution is to just continue to PF them. That way you have players willingly setting aside time for the content (cutscene watching included)—not shoved into wiping repeatedly because half the party doesn’t care to listen to instruction: something fairly common in DF. I stand by what I’ve been saying in this thread: taking a 30-minute penalty would be shorter than attempting to DF any of the more challenging floors.

As for checking your Lodestone, I’ve already done that. There’s not much to see. No public achievements or anything to really back up what you’re saying here, save for SCH BiS when you were on SCH. So telling people to go look at your Lodestone doesn’t really fulfill much in terms of proving the credentials you’re boasting. Perhaps make achievements public before you tell people to go check them out?

[Havenchild]

Absolutely there will be, BUT it would be better to keep it to the content in the normal raid rou as is. Coils are just too far out there on the scale to put them all in there. You either do them all or do none, and personally with those higher number instances I'd rather avoid the headaches for everyone. Unless they want to make a Coils rou(which I doubt they will) they should be kept out of normal raid until they are all nerfed so hard into the ground they make Alte Roite look like Urth's Fount.

I've stated before this isn't a matter of people not being able to clear content, this is a matter of specific these raids being through into normal raid rou, which is meant to be a quick and easy outlet. You want your coils, just go on PF, after all you believe it's not an issue of patience right?

I just think the justification for something like O12N being in roulette, while people have been failing that since it was current, is not being equally distributed to Coil. Content at all in this game shouldn't be treated like a stepchild to the game. Coil more so, because it is an intricate part of FFXIV 2.0 story. The assumption that DF Roulette cannot handle the most punishing of mechanics in Coil, when it has done so before when it was first unlocked and allowed in DF back in the day, literally makes no sense. You didn't suddenly get a group of people who KNEW all of the mechanics off the bat. You had to explain. The same thing you have to do now if you get a carry in DF Roulette: Normal Raid / Alliance. An explanation should not somehow be the villain here. The player base will adapt. Guarantee you that if there was even a single cosmetic ingredient/item added to Coil that was highly sought after, this would not be a discussion. Everyone would be on it, casual / hardcore alike.

Understand the mentality of "due to other examples of DF struggles we've all run into, they should not add coil in" is literally the same reason why the community DOES suffer and bad players develop. Coil, for the very limited challenges it can represent in its current form, in 5.0 (again if you haven't tried it, do so), is not so different than what the community has currently seen. It can easily be (in its current form) the stepping stone, that players can bridge the gap between something like 012N / Eden Normal and ACTUAL Savage level in all of the above.

snip

Duly noted on the Lodestone. I didn't even recall that was a setting (which is fixed).

Aren't you and many others making an assumption though, that it will outright be a wipe fest? As I mentioned before, when these fights were added to DF initially, they were not outright wipe fests and people of all levels did them. A lot of times, you ran into 1- 4 players that hadn't done the content prior, largely cause it was tailored more at the time to static-based content due to no Cross World PF. It took an explanation or two, but due to over gearing, the content was still downable, a statistic mind you, that improved with time of exposure. Prior to coil though, there was no raiding-scene (it was the first of its kind). There were no tiers of Normal/Savage (obviously were not counting T6-T9 Savage). There was no DIFFICULT content that players "had" to do to progress in MSQ notwithstanding Steps of Faith, which wasn't difficult but actually put mechanics in the player's hands for the first time, that they NEEDED to RESPECT.

What has changed now, is the implementation of future normal mode/alliance raids each expansion, which actually contain mechanics/combos you need to respect to down the content as well as upgrade your gear. All of which are completed regularly and are currently part of roulettes. Now, more than ever, do examples exist of mechanics that have been reimplemented ad-nauseum which all stemmed from Coil in one form or another. Players complete this same content in DF nevertheless. To say they somehow can't appropriate the same experience to Coil, or assume as much, is a fallacy and indeed fear-mongering. Of course, it would be silly to say, that there will be ABSOLUTELY no wipes. I have not inferred that ever. But to assume the community can't do it? Nope, I won't sit here and say that. Not after what has successfully been completed already on DF Roulettes. Forget the fact that Coil has already been, at one point in time, successfully pugged on DF consistently.

[ForteNightshade]

snip

You still aren't grasping the fact Coil is considerably harder than any normal, and is harder than a good chunk of EX Primals. Not only are the mechanics far more demanding, one mistake can easily wipe the whole party. Getting hit by Landslide isn't going to kill five other people whereas Twister will. That alone will make people not want to touch any of them, especially when they can faceroll Alexander or Omega in less than half the time. What will happen is people will either leave on sight or demand to be kicked so they avoid the penalty. You needs only look at Orbonne Monastery, Meridianum or any other content where time versus efficiency is lop-sided. People don't want roulettes to take long, not when there are alternatives.

Furthermore, the whole point of even putting Coil in a roulette is so people can experience the story. No DF group will ever wait. And if cut-scenes are forced like MSQ Roulette, people will avoid raid roulette entirely since it doesn't give nearly enough rewards to be worth sitting through cut-scenes and trying to teach people Nael or Bahamut. Even if those rewards were buffed enough to compensate. Well, there have been several threads now complaining how people keep leaving Meridianum because Praetorium offers far better EXP despite only being slightly longer in terms of cut scene length. No matter how you slice it, Coil in the raid roulette would be a nightmare.

If they were to ever consider this, it'd need to go into its own roulette... and I suspect said roulette would almost never pop.

[Noitems]

snip

SE personally made it the red headed stepchild by designating it to it's own little world, and finally splitting the raids into story and savage so that new players didn't have the same experience coil gave. They still also continue to do this with content like BA that does feature more to the story if you clear as opposed to when it concludes when you finish Hydatos so they are no strangers to it.

The fact O12 is still current to players trying to get their 390 weapon gives it much more weight just like Alexander was before Stormblood dropped. The playerbase of back then and the playerbase of now are two totally different demographics. Back when Coil WAS the only thing left to do of course more people would sink in time. Now that we're in 5.1 and new things are out if I'm queuing into normal raid I'd like to get it over asap so to get to other things. Heck I don't even think Coils were in a rou even back then. The majority I'm sure feels the same because I doubt the majority is clicking on five raids they like and praying "I hope I get them!" for the sake of leisure, they're doing the rou and getting it over quickly.

Discussion on this keeps coming back full circle so let me just give a summary of my entire argument:

I believe Coils should not be added to the normal raid roulette because:

A) It is meant for casual quick runs, and should not have to endure raids like T9 and T13 that will cause multiple repeated wipes over a time.

B) The DF playerbase has tendencies to act arrogant, completely disregard helpful hints, and are prone to vote abandoning/leaving on a whim if it's not the content they want, in turn wasting people's time again and again. While this is not the norm it will happen more so with Coils on the later end with more rigorous mechanics to handle. Examples of these actions are popular in some trials/raids including Tsukuyomi NM, Titania NM, and O12N.

C) The option to PF the fights is already there and with the baggage these fights have it would make sense for players who want to experience this story to do it on their own time. I would in the worst case take a roulette specifically for Coils if people want to experience the story/raids however would feel a better alternative is either PF or potentially even having the trust system (as it's planned to help with Prae and Castrum) allow players to experience it for what it is at their own leisure.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

I call it for what it is absolutely. Fear-mongering by the forums for no true reason.

"For no true reason"?

Dude, I've been around since 2.0's alpha and have done literally every battle content as it was released, including world prog on many of the harder fights including Ultimates. I remember when the playerbase auto-left Ifrit hard mode in DF if you didn't get a PLD to chain stun every eruption because it was too hard to dodge for most people. Or if you didn't get a caster for LB3 since killing the nails legit was an actual dps check. When DF was basically a 95% failure rate on Titan HM in the DF between lack of skill, lag and lack of gear.

I've been around in the heat of every single "controversy" of this game. I remember when the concept of doing your rotation was too hard, thus Steps of Faith was too hard in the DF and remember countless abandonments and/or people insta-leaving, to the point trials roulette was almost impossible to queue for quite a while. Then I remember having to go through 6 different groups before getting my first Final Steps of Faith clear because people sucked, a story that would repeat literally 2x again with the final boss of SB & Castrum Fluminis. The rest of the topic has talked ad nauseum about how some of the easiest fights on paper (TG Cid, the fights I've listed above, Dun Scaith, Titania NM, literally could write an entire paragraph on these.) have failure rates way higher than what should be acceptable. Especially Titania. I leveled three characters, and between the three of them I needed 10 different groups. TEN groups to get three clears. When literally the hardest mechanic in that fight is "stack in a puddle." Don't even get me started on the hilariousness that was weeping city on release.

There's a reason "tales from the DF" exists. There's a reason many, many people say the quality of the DF is poor. It's not fear-mongering. It's valid concerns based on literal years of evidence, forum posts from people calling for nerfs on already trivial content. If you want to see how well DF would fare against the harder coils, go queue up each EX primal in the DF five times each alone with no help, and tell me your success rate & how many of those runs have someone leave instantly. You'll quickly see the reality of the playerbase around you.

I helped a group of super casual friends do coil synced in 5.08 as they wanted to do it legit for fun. As much as I love them, they're probably much more aligned with the average skill of a DF player than probably anyone you've run coils with in 5.0. We saw Allagan field and wiped to it multiple times. I had to painstakingly teach them to do towers. The towersets that involved 3 were a mess for at least 8 pulls before we lucked out. T9 took us literally three entire raid days (6 hours) to clear because of Golem Phase alone. I don't even want to talk about the craziness that was T11 & T12. Deaths and wipes galore. Keep in mind all of this was with voice communication, something DF would be lacking.

T1-4 could be allowed in the DF. T5 is a maybe since divebombs is the one mechanic I wouldn't trust the DF with even with the pit, which is also one of the more important mechanics that can kill everyone if its bungled. (Knocking people into the wall if they move too late, or knocking people out into the arena to get massacred by proceeding divebombs if they move too early and Twin spawns behind the group as a result.) T6-7 would be sketchier, but possible. T8 would be super sketch. T9 and up would just be lol.

When DF has had a historic failure rate unacceptable on the easier, basic fights in the game that are much more mechanically sparse, why are you insistent that adding Coils would result in anything different?