Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

[Shiroe]

you cant time Everlasting Flight like other mitigations or CDs (like Mantra)...

but Phönix is not seldomly up, exactly when healing is needed and nice to have...

healers with Smn can answer better, how it feels to have Phönix in fights (with statics or farm parties)

[HyperiusUltima]

Smn also has "ever lasting flight", when Phönix is out... a healing buff on nearby members (HOT effect)

- dps buff, aetherpac
- healunf buff, ELF
- rez

Smn is like a Mnk somehow, dps buff + healing utility (+ rez).

The healing utility isn't necessarily enough to be worth taking over a Ranged DPS because it's not going to reduce incoming damage(especially since heal ticks from Flight aren't as HoT as people think they are) and SMN is going to be using Phoenix for burst phases anyway. The comparison to MNK is not even close considering MNK has Mantra, is comp dependent for Brotherhood Chakra Generation, and has a truckload of damage to go with it. The Raise is just there in case somebody gets tanked in progression, but I'm talking about this in a Clear raid scenario.

[Akiudo]

You misunderstand that in a composition, Physical Ranged are the only DPS that can reduce raid-wide damage by 10%, compared to the likes of Feint and Addle which only affect enemy stats(provides circa 6-7% Damage Type Mitigation). On top of that, also providing buffs in the case of BRD/DNC, or outputting raw damage as MCH. Even then, you want at least one to alleviate healers so they can DPS more. if you replace that with SMN, you're basically trading off that mitigation and buffs for Devotion, which is just a 5% Damage Buff for the raid. It may sound rather out of place at first, but the data speaks for itself. If SE makes any small changes come 4.11 or 4.15, we'll see what they do to fix the situation.

firstly i'm unsure why you think addle/feint are 6-7% damage reduction , a 10% mainstat reduction should actually come out as a 10% damage reduction , also they are on a shorter cooldown and with 2 melee/2 caster you got 2 off both, if this would not be enough than the situation before the patch with the even longer cooldown on troubadour/samba should have been basically impossible for groups to handle, also if you really think they offer enough value for this much of a dps discreptancy than why not go double physical ranged ? i mean they can take turns with their damage reduction, saves the healers extra work.

also, this seems to be a hard concept for people as it gets said like 10 times a day per any given thread but "providing buffs" (damage buffs that is) is NOT a bonus point for a class, bard and dancer damage sucks as after the buffs they provide are accounted for, it matters jack if a class is 1000 dps personal below an alternate class or 3000 dps personal below but buffing the group for 2000 dps, both leave you with 1000 dps less than if you just took another class so why bringt it up ?

you say if you give up bard/dnc you trade damage buffs (again, pretty unsure were you got your numbers on the mitigation part, but open to take a math lesson from some theorycraft wizard) for devotion which is a worse damage buff but that argument is simply wrong, like yes you do as you say, but what does it matter ? summoner isn't 1000 dps above bard and buffs the group for 500 while bard buffs the group for 1200, summoner is 2000 above bard and than buffs the group for 500 while bard buffs the group for 1000 leaving it with a 1500 dps deficiency

edit: and to this

The Raise is just there in case somebody gets tanked in progression, but I'm talking about this in a Clear raid scenario.

you really think the phys ranged dmg mitigation is totally needed after progression ? is it nice to have ? totally, but so is a rezz not done by a healer if something goes wrong, if you really believe something like troubadour is necessary to do a weekly kill or even saves a lot of healing you vastly underestimate the damage reduction capabilitys of other classes

[Miminming]

E4S:
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...s=68&bracket=2

Hades Ex:
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/28/#boss=1049

Thats a BAD example like i said comparing only 5.1 is not the best way to compared BLM and SMN, you should compared All BLM by not selecting the patch with 5.1 SMN, thag way 90+ percentile still have BLM topping SMN.

Hades is, again too unique because of long transision, if you based a dps on hades the difference on a normal fight gonna be hugeeeeee.

[Shurrikhan]

The healing utility isn't necessarily enough to be worth taking over a Ranged DPS because it's not going to reduce incoming damage(especially since heal ticks from Flight aren't as HoT as people think they are) and SMN is going to be using Phoenix for burst phases anyway. The comparison to MNK is not even close considering MNK has Mantra.

Everlasting Flight is 700 potency, or two Vercures each as AoEs. It's largely pointless since it really can't be timed to damage in any way due to SMN's strict macrorotations, but it will always contribute more healing than Mantra now that the latter has been reduced to half and it takes less than 2k AoE potency to fully heal through whatever raid damage is likely to be present over Mantra's duration (leaving Mantra at, at best, some 200 potency of healing).

Similarly, Troubadour/Tactician/Samba will indirectly deal between 0 and some 400 potency of healing because of the healing (rarely) GCD saved with a mere 10% mitigation. If even a third of its ticks manage not to merely overheal, Everlasting Flight is generally stronger than either.

[ShaneDawn]

Finding it laughable, that we've arrived at another round of blatant power balance issues and I see a lot of median tier players chirping in about *perceived* job difficulty and trying to leverage that as a justification for the current state of balance. Absolutely moronic.

Summoner is clearly overperforming right now and implying it is not is mindless. Not only does it currently outperform its closest competitor, Black Mage, in both rDPS and utility in all percentiles but the absolute highest, it really has pushed the third wheel in the Caster role close to redundancy (reference). I would go as far as to say that Red Mage, as a result, is the worst job in the game. Not because it does the lowest rDPS, the ranged do, but because of the fact that its direct competitors far outclass the job by miles.

Caster Balance is a mess.

[RadicalPesto]

Finding it laughable, that we've arrived at another round of blatant power balance issues and I see a lot of median tier players chirping in about *perceived* job difficulty and trying to leverage that as a justification for the current state of balance. Absolutely moronic.

Summoner is clearly overperforming right now and implying it is not is mindless. Not only does it currently outperform its closest competitor, Black Mage, in both rDPS and utility in all percentiles but the absolute highest, it really has pushed the third wheel in the Caster role close to redundancy (reference). I would go as far as to say that Red Mage, as a result, is the worst job in the game. Not because it does the lowest rDPS, the ranged do, but because of the fact that its direct competitors far outclass the job by miles.

Caster Balance is a mess.

New Summoner seems overpowered enough to potentially drive the entire physical ranged role out in the same way that people feared 2x BLM would do by means of a SMN/BLM comp, except while bringing a Raise and not having the penalty for duplicate jobs that 2x BLM had. It's also patently absurd that people are arguing that SMN deserves to be this powerful "because its difficult" when the class was made substantially easier as part of this round of buffs.

Buffing other jobs to compensate for Summoner's currently broken damage would require to buff almost every DPS job in the game (you can't simply buff BLM, since doing so would partly nullify the buffs RDM got to make it competitive with BLM, and buffing RDM would require further buffing of the entire ranged physical role to make them competitive with casters, and for all we know this might also require giving small buffs to melee classes as well). The only solution is to revert some of the potency increases SMN got whether people like it or not, because turning this into a casters arms race will just end the same way that the ranged physical DPS arms race ended in Heavensward, which was making that particular role overpowered compared to other types of DPS.

Some people will always cry in the forums when nerfs happen to their favorite class, and even openly support their favorite class ruining the entire game's balance as some sort of reparation for being bad for one patch, as can be seen in this thread. These people should simply not be listened to since they don't have the best interests of the entire playerbase in mind, only their own.

[ReiMakoto]

New Summoner seems overpowered enough to potentially drive the entire physical ranged role out in the same way that people feared 2x BLM would do by means of a SMN/BLM comp, except while bringing a Raise and not having the penalty for duplicate jobs that 2x BLM had. It's also patently absurd that people are arguing that SMN deserves to be this powerful "because its difficult" when the class was made substantially easier as part of this round of buffs.

Buffing other jobs to compensate for Summoner's currently broken damage would require to buff almost every DPS job in the game (you can't simply buff BLM, since doing so would partly nullify the buffs RDM got to make it competitive with BLM, and buffing RDM would require further buffing of the entire ranged physical role to make them competitive with casters, and for all we know this might also require giving small buffs to melee classes as well). The only solution is to revert some of the potency increases SMN got whether people like it or not, because turning this into a casters arms race will just end the same way that the ranged physical DPS arms race ended in Heavensward, which was making that particular role overpowered compared to other types of DPS.

Some people will always cry in the forums when nerfs happen to their favorite class, and even openly support their favorite class ruining the entire game's balance as some sort of reparation for being bad for one patch, as can be seen in this thread. These people should simply not be listened to since they don't have the best interests of the entire playerbase in mind, only their own.

With the new ranged buffs, ranged won't be pushed out, but they are still really bad. The double BLM comp theorycrafted needed 2 BLMs performing at 95%+ to get a very minor increase, iirc from the original thread it was 0.5% over taking a top performing ranged, and wasn't a gain if you could get another LB2 out of a normal comp (due to reduced lb generation from double class). The new ranged buff and no nerf to BLM means that that 0.5% will likely not happen anymore. Ranged still need a buff though imo.

[Lastelli]

Summoner is clearly overperforming right now and implying it is not is mindless. Not only does it currently outperform its closest competitor, Black Mage.

This is false though. Just compare 5.0 BLM with 5.1 SMN and you'll notice that BLM clearly has the edge (by about 300 rdps) at 99%. Furthermore, BLM has the highest max damage potential (again, compare 5.0 max blm vs 5.1 max smn) and in this case the difference widens, this is particularly obvious in e10s (top blm 17418 vs top smn 16385). So if SMN is overperforming...I wonder what BLM is doing.

The only exception seems to be e1s because of weird downtime timings and burst windows, but in that case the higher dps is mostly due to padding during the adds phase.

[Shiroe]

why compare 5.0 with 5.1?

5.0 is over, everthing that matters is 5.1..