Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

[Myon88]

How is black mage 'non-competitive' in the current patch, pray tell? Objectively speaking, it remains the #1 rdps job in the game which you can check for yourself right now. It's just 'only' 500-1000 dps ahead of summoner now, instead of 1000-1500. On e2, e3, and e4 you have to scroll down to almost the hundredth place, past a ton of blms, mnks, and sams, before you see the first summoner appear. E1 is the only outlier fight where they share the top of the leaderboard with blm, and that's because of padding with bane and phoenix gcds on the quad meteor orbs, and a killtime where the fight ends immediately after that.

If you're in a group that intends to do speedruns, blm isn't going anywhere. If smn enters the metagame for speed, it will be by replacing a melee or a range long before they enroach on blm.

If it's about being welcome in progression, I've already explained a few pages ago (here) why summoner is not the reason for black mage being shunned from groups. The real reason is outdated stereotypes about raid comps that assume having 2 melees is the 'standard' and that the 3 casters have to fight for 1 raid spot. Blm already does more rdps than any of the melees, a second addle is more than a fine replacement for feint (better even, since raids tend to skew magic heavy). We are no longer shackled to drg for ranged buffs, or nin for emnity control.

Tell me, what reason is there for a group to not replace a melee with a good blm? Thinking this is about rdm/smn vs blm alone is buying into a false dichotomy.

You will never be able to force people to willingly take a blm to prog by nerfing summoner and red mage. In the first place, trying to tear down your 'competition' is a lazy and underhanded approach. The sooner you realize it's the melees you need to justify your raid spot over, the better it will be.

There are a few other reasons I can venture as to why stereotypes about black mages have been slow to change, and they aren't commonly picked for groups. For one, it's hard to find good black mages because of how punishing mistakes are to their output. Due to their gameplay they also encourage (or attract) players that tend to be greedy at the cost of safety - not a good mindset to have in progression. And so what? All these are personal problems that have nothing to do with the other casters. If you insist on playing the all star quarterback dps role for your group, you had better be prepared to fill those boots because it is your responsibility to get good.

[Lastelli]

If you're in a group that intends to do speedruns, blm isn't going anywhere. If smn enters the metagame for speed, it will be by replacing a melee or a range long before they enroach on blm.

Not entirely sure about smn replacing a melee, but I mostly agree with you. BLM still is the top rdps job in the game in most scenarios and choosing to play it over smn should only be because of gameplay preference, not because it deals 10%+ more damange than its competitors.

SMN is doing the amount of damage that its supposed to be doing for the amount of work that has to be put into it.

There's nothing hard about the current iteration of smn. And jobs shouldn't be balance around their relative perceived difficulty anyway.

[Siete]

Not entirely sure about smn replacing a melee, but I mostly agree with you. BLM still is the top rdps job in the game in most scenarios and choosing to play it over smn should only be because of gameplay preference, not because it deals 10%+ more damange than its competitors.



There's nothing hard about the current iteration of smn. And jobs shouldn't be balance around their relative perceived difficulty anyway.

It is way more intrincated than spamming Fire IV.

[Siete]

Who cares? Square has said that class difficulty doesn't dictate output. Also both classes are straightforward and their rotation concepts are easy to perform. Don't kid yourself.

Not when you have 250ms+, they're not.

[Nemekh]

Who cares? Square has said that class difficulty doesn't dictate output. Also both classes are straightforward and their rotation concepts are easy to perform. Don't kid yourself.

And yet Yoshida has also said this is the justification for BLM to do more than Samurai circa Alphascape. SE has made conflicting statements in interviews and panels historically.

BLM: Primarily GCD based. GCDs have ping correction built-in.

SMN: Much heavier emphasis on OGCDs. OGCDs are subject to a considerable increase in animation lock with higher ping. OGCDs do not have ping correction.

The jobs are not remotely close to equivalent in impact at higher ping. But at least the Egi Assault change went a great way in improving this. I am a high ping player and the difference in feel is night and day.

[Siete]

And yet Yoshida has also said this is the justification for BLM to do more than Samurai circa Alphascape. SE has made conflicting statements in interviews and panels historically.

BLM: Primarily GCD based. GCDs have ping correction built-in.

SMN: Much heavier emphasis on OGCDs. OGCDs are subject to a considerable increase in animation lock with higher ping. OGCDs do not have ping correction.

The jobs are not remotely close to equivalent in impact at higher ping. But at least the Egi Assault change went a great way in improving this. I am a high ping player and the difference in feel is night and day.

Same, I'm always between 250ms and 400ms, the new egi assaults are a day-night difference. Yet I saw some rotation videos allowing SMN to beat BLM in DPS terms and HAHAHA, it is impossible for me to do the same the buttons won't react that way no matter how fast I press them. Low ping SMNs are more than twice my casting speed, it feels like a completely different class.

[Shurrikhan]

I did not say that square enix should not adjust a too strong job, I meant that they repeat the same error in the sense that there will always be too strong jobs in the game .

Again, you're stating the obvious, so what's your point? That a .01% difference is fundamentally the same as a 10% difference, and thus we shouldn't complain about imbalances of any degree? What?

Who cares? Square has said that class difficulty doesn't dictate output. Also both classes are straightforward and their rotation concepts are easy to perform. Don't kid yourself.

Unless you see that opinion coming from a combined panel of the raid design team and our trio of job designers, it's almost certainly just lip-service to best placate the most vocal portions of the playerbase. That's been the only consistency across their combat design statements. Virtually everything else has contradicted itself over time.