Reasonable buff to war

[Izsha]

"Minor complaints" maybe you should go look at the tank damage forum. There is a giant complaint of how tanks got gutted with their importance and dumbed down between expansions for no reason. Healers got his treatment but did SE fix them? For the most part yes, relatively quickly, so why didn't tanks at least get mentioned they will look into???

WAR is not in a good spot, no one is saying that who looks at basic data. WAR is the least played tank by a country mile while all the others are relatively close in play percentage. DRK have valid complaints, but WAR has massive problems too stemming from the whole rework they did to WAR in SB (Which was a bad idea). WAR is supposed to be the sustain tank, but that means nothing when every fight you need to tank swap resulting in long periods of time where you are not using your strengths while other tanks bring better party or damage than you. Then WAR complete kit got screw balled this expansion by being gutted and then left with a shell of a job with just IR and fell cleave spam which results in one of the worst feeling tanks to play in the game. Balance means nothing if you aren't having fun, and the community is basically saying "we are not having fun with WAR".

Again, as I said, the only complaints are largely subjective stuff about fun and 'clunk'. You speak as if there is a consensus mandate from the people on these issues. There isnt. Objectively (as you pointed out and I have said) tanks are balanced. 'Wars not fun' is an opinion that is not shared by everyone so why would SE hop too on a mixed bag of opinions? Really? If drk has taught us anything its that you cant make everyone happy by reworking a job. There are people that will not he happy until its HW drk again. Others who liked SB Drk and some that like ShB drk now and people that hated each version as well.

So who's 'fun's should SE fix drk for? Who's 'fun' should they overhaul warrior for? Yours? I'm sure you would like that. I really like drk right now and wish they reverted war to 4.0 war with separate zerk or windows. But there are people that love war today and hate drk today. But apparently SE is supposed to jump on drk/war overhauls because SOME people dont like it. Sorry, that's not a realistic expectation. If people are going to start riots when there are very few and small objective problems, then that's uncalled for. If people start riots because of differences of subjective opinion demanding SE cater to group A over group B, that's also unfair. In either case, these strong reactions are overblown.


Edit: and before someone brings up playrates again for the umpteenth time, I've posted on that a half dozen times. I'll just dig that up and paste it later.

[NyneSwordz]

People saying fun or clunky is subjective. Maybe in some cases it is. But is nascent flash having a party target requirement fun? Is anyone even making that argument? Is it not clunky to have almost have to have a macro to use an action? They got rid of the party target requirement for dragoons eye. Why not implement that here for nascent flash?

Is conal aoe with overpower fun? Maybe it was when you only had to position the enemies and blast them with overpower a couple of times to grab hate. Thats fine. Cool even. But when its part of a rotation that you have to spam constantly and the number of enemies makes it impossible to always be hitting everything, why not just make it a 360 aoe at that point?

Maybe these issues are "nitpicky" but they add up and affect enjoyment of the job. And its fine if a job being viable in raids is good enough for you. If its not for others then just leave them to it. And if fun is subjective, then who are you be saying those who no longer want to play a job because they find it unfun childish?

[Shurrikhan]

People saying fun or clunky is subjective. Maybe in some cases it is. But is nascent flash having a party target requirement fun? Is anyone even making that argument? Is it not clunky to have almost have to have a macro to use an action? They got rid of the party target requirement for dragoons eye. Why not implement that here for nascent flash?

Is conal aoe with overpower fun? Maybe it was when you only had to position the enemies and blast them with overpower a couple of times to grab hate. Thats fine. Cool even. But when its part of a rotation that you have to spam constantly and the number of enemies makes it impossible to always be hitting everything, why not just make it a 360 aoe at that point?

Maybe these issues are "nitpicky" but they add up and affect enjoyment of the job. And its fine if a job being viable in raids is good enough for you. If its not for others then just leave them to it. And if fun is subjective, then who are you be saying those who no longer want to play a job because they find it unfun childish?

For me, no to the first, yes to the second. Though, I suppose that's your case in point. Just know that your opinion might well be in minority on one or more of those areas.

I used to be on the nascent clunk train, but since I started using a non macro version and playing drk more often targeting TBN (exact same system) I no longer feel it is a great burden..

But, you at least can TBN on self. You can't do that with NF.

[NyneSwordz]

For me, no to the first, yes to the second. Though, I suppose that's your case in point. Just know that your opinion might well be in minority on one or more of those areas.



But, you at least can TBN on self. You can't do that with NF.

Somehow forums lost my long post... sigh... anyway, the long and short of it is that by "clunkiness" I don't just mean the difficulty of USING nascent flash when it is available for use, but the very RESTRICTIONS ON WHEN it can be used is an unnecessary inconvenience.

That is, the party target requirement itself accounts for a bulk of what I would call the "clunkiness" of Nascent Flash. In a raid, or even dungeon setting, this is not a huge issue. But if you look at other aspects of PvE such as instanced quests, or FATE farming or something in the overworld, the party target requirement's inconvenience becomes more apparent. In the overworld or out in a map and without a party member, you have to summon your chocobo to use Nascent Flash. Not a big deal I guess, but it's one extra thing you have to do in order to even be able to use the action.

In an instanced quest setting, you NEED a friendly NPC in order to use Nascent Flash, there are NO PARTY MEMBERS allowed in such instanced quests - not even a chocobo. So in those settings, you can target a friendly NPC with Nascent Flash, but it's more difficult because they aren't in the party UI. For easier targeting, you have to focus target, then target focus them to use Nascent Flash. It becomes more aggravating when the quest involves multiple parts where you will go from one section of a map to another section, which clears the focus target, requiring you to focus target the NPC again.

Nascent Flash is the best new action Wars got in this xpac, it has a great animation, and it brings back that great bloodbath feel that was missing. But the party target requirement keeps it from truly being bloodbath, and imo, from truly being a blast to use.

In my opinion, SE should just separate Nascent Flash from Nascent Glint and have them share a cooldown. Nascent Glint would be what Nascent Flash is now, and the new Nascent Flash would just be the self healing buff. They should refrain from adding more of these party target requirements or having multiple effects in the same action (self healing, plus healing others, plus damage reduction to others). It just gets clunky/inconvenient when they do that.

They could also just remove the party target requirement and have it self targetable, like TBN, or dragoons eye, or even Holmgang.

I'm waiting to see what they do with NF in PvP, because if they remove it this coming Tuesday, I think we can expect they'll do the same for the PvE version at a later date. At least, I hope so.

[Shurrikhan]

Somehow forums lost my long post... sigh... anyway, the long and short of it is that by "clunkiness" I don't just mean the difficulty of USING nascent flash when it is available for use, but the very RESTRICTIONS ON WHEN it can be used is an unnecessary inconvenience.

So, what would your preference be, apart from the obvious removal of the target requirement as per at least Dragon Sight, which we both agree on?

Charges? Recast time reduction? Preemptive ("reduces the recast time of your next Nascent Flash"), retroactive ("reduces current remaining recast time"), or both?
Would you prefer Nascent Glint to be decoupled from Nascent Flash and for Nascent Flash to just become Bloodbath (opposite Raw Intuition), while maybe some new skill (say, Warcry) then splits the effect between yourself and either a target or all nearby allies at a variable cooldown?
What works best?

Personally, I'd have much rather have seen NF expanded on that have gotten the Holmgang buff, etc. TBN and Intervention, especially, give a strong feeling of co-tank involvement and/or deliberate timing. At present, NF just... doesn't. Like Aurora, it too rarely makes a true difference or feels like there's that much to optimize when spread across both tanks. It's strong in dungeons during IR AoE, but other than that... Seems a waste.

[Kabooa]

Personally, I'd have much rather have seen NF expanded on that have gotten the Holmgang buff, etc. TBN and Intervention, especially, give a strong feeling of co-tank involvement and/or deliberate timing. At present, NF just... doesn't. Like Aurora, it too rarely makes a true difference or feels like there's that much to optimize when spread across both tanks. It's strong in dungeons during IR AoE, but other than that... Seems a waste.

Biggest problem with NF is that you need IR or Infuriate to really feel it

Even regular Decimate in a big group feels a little underwhelming. Nascent Flash feels like it should trait to Infuriate.

[Shurrikhan]

Biggest problem with NF is that you need IR or Infuriate to really feel it

Even regular Decimate in a big group feels a little underwhelming. Nascent Flash feels like it should trait to Infuriate.

Isn't that true of every duration-based buff, though, or at least those that *could* be used meaningfully outside of the buff period, but not nearly so greatly?

For instance, now that we have Atonement, I feel like I need the GB-to-GB(+Req ender) Fight or Flight window (its limitations by duration and wanting to use Requiescat immediately after more so than the bonus %damage, oddly enough) for me to really feel the impact of Goring Blade; it'd only be 45 ppgcd over just spamming RA-Atonement if not for the fact that you only have the space for 10 GCDs (finisher + 3 combos + oGCD gap) in the FoF window.

If NF is underwhelming in that you need IR or Infuriate to really feel it, doesn't that just point at slightly too much burst? If Warrior has gotten to the point that if something doesn't Direct Crit it may as well be white damage, then more than that just being a NF problem, numbers in general probably need to be reshuffled back towards where aligned burst feels like the highest of multiple peaks in our macrorotation rather than everything between feeling like stagnation.

[millktea]

.

That is incorrect. The tank damage forum is massive, and i've already dealt with you previously, Izsha, you don't have a strong understanding of warrior (or did you finally realize how bad storms eye and it having adjustments would actually make a difference?), so it makes sense that "fun/clunk" is your only rebuttal. There IS a consensus, actually. It's all in that forum and on reddit.. 4.2 war had a massive pool of lamentations and yet this IR still made it into ShB. warrior is the LEAST played tank. It plummeted from alphascape into eden. So, yeah, they KNOW who to make it for. the japanese players are just as unhappy about warrior's condition and having no identity.

if you want your answer on whom the jobs should be made for, it isn't the casual community. the bad players are going to keep playing poorly as they simply do not care to perform correctly, this is the actual issue here. and yeah, i brought up playrates. deal with it being brought up again. it matters.

I mean... holmgang is really nice in Levi with a DRK. You never share/split any tankbusters with that comp.
Holmgang isn't bad once it gets the buff, but... the duration change makes it almost as useful to me as Living Dead outside of requiring an exceptional amount of healing. Heal a WAR enough for them to survive while thier self heal helps a bit is nice. But, making all damage 0 adds another layer that healers love. PLD? Don't even consider them apart of the fight for 10 secs which is great for catching up or just free damage. Superboilde? Throw a regen on them and dps/catch up like PLD while the GNB is likely to put thier own regen on themselves.

With DRK/WAR there is a bit of a 'emergency' because you have to have them at a safe HP number as the duration runs out (and the required healing for DRK to not die) all the while any heals you throw at them during the invuln can be nulled out by auto atacks or tankbusters like stonecrusher. Complete invuln of damage alows safe heals or ignoring heals in PLD's case.

exactly this.

the issue isnt so much that it was difficult to heal for the first hit for SC, it was that healers DONT want to heal, even if it only requires ogcd heal like tetra first (and scholar doesnt want to give up EDs). holmgang will also not be fixed until that other bind is removed, as that animation is problematic as well as needing to untarget the enemy. no one cares about the bind.