How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Lastelli]

There's no grieving here, not from me anyway. Tanks should tank, healers should heal. Dealing damage, when possible, is a nice secondary or tertiary priority, but should absolutely not be a place of focus for the role.

That's not how this game works. As long as DPS is the (only) variable directly affecting kill times (or dictating whether you can clear an encounter at all because of dps checks), total rDPS>everything else. Tanking and healing are important because they allow the party to maximize DPS (by not letting other players die -> a dead player deals 0 damage), but this also means that tanks and healers should do everything they can to maximize their own personal damage. And it also means that DPS should do everything they can to let healers and tanks maximize their DPS (avoid damage when possible, use defensive support skills and so on) while maximizing theirs.

Players that don't understand the simple concept that skill in this game is measured by the ability to maximize the rDPS of the whole party either directly or indirectly are doomed to mediocrity.

[Kabooa]

Players that don't understand the simple concept that skill in this game is measured by the ability to maximize the rDPS of the whole party either directly or indirectly are doomed to mediocrity.

Yet this thread exists not because players understand that concept, but because they feel like they don't do enough. They don't seek to expand anything. The just want to add 1 to their leading digit.

[Quor]

Yet this thread exists not because players understand that concept, but because they feel like they don't do enough. They don't seek to expand anything. The just want to add 1 to their leading digit.

Exactly this. The past 20 pages of this thread, no one has offered any suggestion to increase tank "complexity" or "engagement." It's just been whining for more damage and "heals shouldn't out dps tanks" and a bunch of defeatist resignation about fight design.

Time to put up or shut up. Start offering suggestions that are meaningful. Open yourself up to criticism. Try to fix the actual problem instead of throwing a band-aid arbitrary amount of dps at tanks and calling it a day. If you can't do that, then shut up and accept that you're simply whining because you want a bigger bar on the graph.

[Quor]

Exactly this. The past 20 pages of this thread, no one has offered any suggestion to increase tank "complexity" or "engagement." It's just been whining for more damage and "heals shouldn't out dps tanks" and a bunch of defeatist resignation about fight design.

Time to put up or shut up. Start offering suggestions that are meaningful. Open yourself up to criticism. Try to fix the actual problem instead of throwing a band-aid arbitrary amount of dps at tanks and calling it a day. If you can't do that, then shut up and accept that you're simply whining because you want a bigger bar on the graph.

Now, in the interest of not pulling a "do as I say, not as I do" I'll get the ball rolling.

WAR - Bring back BB combo (yes, it can be done, it was done with Energy Drain and Hagakure just recently). Butcher's Block now applies a DoT called "Fractured" to the target when used that lasts for 30s. While active, the DoT increases all damage done to the target by 2%, and when the DoT expires naturally the WAR also gains 20 beast gauge. This gives WAR incentive to use BB combo as a 2% raid increase and the DoT itself will both be significant, but you don't want to overlap the DoT nor do you want it to fall off for more than a second or two, so proper BB timing will be key. Storm's Eye duration baseline boosted to 40s to help compensate for this new addition. This will slow down WAR's opener a bit, but overall be a solid increase in damage, both in a raid sense and a personal sense.

DRK - Bring back Power Slash combo. It grants a 6% haste buff to DRK for 30s while Darkside now only grants 5% damage (net increase of ~1% overall damage for the DRK). If used under the effect of Dark Arts, Power Slash now also applies a debuff called "Shredded Soul" that increases damage done to the target by 2% for 60s. Shredded Soul also causes all damage done to the target via weaponskills/spells to replenish 8 MP to the DRK who applied the debuff and 2% of the damage dealt as life to the person who did the weaponskill/spell. Assuming a 2.0 GCD, this would be 240 MP over the course of the debuff, or approximately 20 potency. At 2.4 GCD you're looking at 200 MP over 60s, or approximately 32 potency. This means over the course of the 60s, assuming 2 tanks and 4 dps attacking a boss non-stop and 2 healers occasionally attacking between heals, you'll see maybe 600-800 MP gained, or about 250-280 potency extra. 2% extra healing may not sound like much but over the course of a fight it would add up to some significant healing, saving healers at least a few extra GCD's over the course of a boss.

PLD - Bring back Rage of Halone baby! As with PS and BB combos, this will put a 2% increased damage taken debuff on the target, as well as the "Blinding Light" debuff for 30s. Blinding Light makes it so that anyone within 5y of the PLD takes 1% less damage from all sources, while the PLD takes .5% additional damage for each person who benefits from the Blinding Light effect. A full raid stack would have everyone taking 1% less overall damage while the PLD takes 3.5% more damage. A typical "solo MT in front" situation would see PLD damage taken unchanged, while pairing up next to the OT for a mechanic would cause a negligible .5% incoming damage increase. 1% damage may not seem like much, but we've all known that dps who survived with single digit life before; every bit of mitigation helps, but it's not so much mitigation (nor is it easy mitigation to manage outside of general raid stack stuff) that it gives PLD too much of an edge.

GNB - Add a second cartridge combo. Call it "Trigger Blast" or something, I dunno. Potency-wise it would be about 80% of what Renzokuken does (not counting Cont.) but it would instead refund the cartridge used upon successful execution and then apply the "Mauled" debuff for 30s. As above, Mauled would increase damage taken to the target by 2% while also reducing damage dealt by the target to the GNB by 5%. GNB damage as-is feels pretty good; the addition of a combo that's 80% as strong as Renzokuken (and also refunds the cartridge used) is already a stout little dps bump, so the Mauled debuff plays into that by addressing GNB's key weakness of being the squishiest of all the tanks. It's chief benefit is while MTing of course, but it's also useful for taking the edge off of raid-wides and shared busters.

All of these 2% damage increase debuffs would stack with one another, but never more than two separate instances at a time. This means you could run any combination of two tanks, but only up to two tanks and reap the full benefit from the debuffs. Three tanks (or more in the case of big stuff like hunts or FATE's) would still get the personal benefit from their debuffs, but the damage increase would be capped at 4% regardless of how many debuffs were placed on the mob.

[Shurrikhan]

...All of these 2% damage increase debuffs would stack with one another, but never more than two separate instances at a time. This means you could run any combination of two tanks, but only up to two tanks and reap the full benefit from the debuffs. Three tanks (or more in the case of big stuff like hunts or FATE's) would still get the personal benefit from their debuffs, but the damage increase would be capped at 4% regardless of how many debuffs were placed on the mob.

Okay, but... how does this make tanking, or dealing damage as a tank, less shallow by any noticeable margin? 2 extra buttons per tank just to offer 2% more damage in the form of another one-size-fits-all homogeneous off-combo that will likely end up feeling more like a maintenance grind than anything fitting the individual tank job? That seems... gimmicky at best. And why make that damage benefit unable to switch targets except once per 30 seconds?

All in all, it just seems an unnecessarily bloated and inefficient direction to go in for additional depth.

Now, maybe that's all we're ever going to be allowed, since in all likelihood each further expansion will cut another third of whatever differentiates our tanks outside of flavor text and animations, in which case... I guess it's as good as anything else, because tanking is a hallow mockery of its potential anyways??? But, short of that, couldn't we at least start by focusing on the just obviously lackluster skills of each kit and work from those towards trying to deepen active mitigation across the board and offering a bit more depth in damage-dealing via core systems to the tanks that suffer most from their lobotomies?

DRK and WAR actually probably have some of the better unique mitigation interactions, but their damage dealing could really use a little more to concern oneself with in short-term play. DRK has decent nuance when banking around raid buffs but very few macrorotational checks of its own (and each of those passable through very basic habits), while WAR's gauge has ignored virtually any and all of its potential for complexity. That's not to say there isn't plenty to improve upon in the other kits, but we can't stick to the false narrative of "Any meaningful difference whatsoever in how tanks perform the same task will lead to rampant balancing issues." We should expect more from the devs than that false ultimatum / excuse.

[Kabooa]

Okay, but... how does this make tanking, or dealing damage as a tank, less shallow by any noticeable margin?

How does adding 50 potency to every GCD?

[Shurrikhan]

How does adding 50 potency to every GCD [make tanking less shallow]?

Never said it did.

In fact I said it didn't.

I don't need to agree with another poster's own solution just because we both agree that some other solution is bloated. There can exist more than two opinions.

Suggest it then. Also, please define exactly what it is you want in complexity, so everyone here can understand beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Working on it. Will post it here once done. The main bottleneck is making sure that any generalized systems made in increasing that depth each work to double down on, rather than detract from, the unique aspects of the tanks and their enjoyable playflows--not just for the purposes of diversity, but more because that simply (1) feels better to play and (2) that provides a precedent counter to reduction-centric streamlining (which I feel guided ShB design more than it should have).

I define complexity as having competing options that are given weight based on situational need, upcoming fight mechanics, and alignment to macro-rotation.

For point of comparison, merely throwing in another plate to spin does not necessarily increase what I consider complexity. If adding that stronger but more constricted option actually takes away or makes non-competitive more options than it creates, we could call that negative complexity, or more aptly convolution (more buttons and tooltips required for at best the same complexity). This is often the case with maintence debuffs, where one or two tends to give benchmarks and rotational breakpoints around which to use varying rotations (think of the equally viable 3-step, 4-step, and 5-step DRG combos in SB before Lance Mastery was tremendously buffed), but a further maintenance buff without a clear idea of working with the complexity already in place (or simply overtune any of those rotational options) and you occlude one or more of those choices, making it at best, again, a net convolution rather than an increase to complexity.

"Shallow complexity", meanwhile, is about the least amount of complexity (use per 30 seconds [prioritize above all other effects, even if this means resetting your combo or otherwise making a mess of your playflow]) possible for the number of parts involved. Think of every way possible to make a more modular mechanic which can more seamlessly integrate with existing play. Now avoid those options. Think also of however the same effect in terms of capacity and complexity can be generated with fewer added actions. Now, ignore those means of efficiency. The result is "shallow complexity".

[Quor]

snip

Suggest it then. Also, please define exactly what it is you want in complexity, so everyone here can understand beyond a shadow of a doubt. I keep suggesting complexity (and dps too, both p and r!) and I have yet to see someone give any substantive criticism beyond "muh bloat." And to be clear, when I say "criticism" I'm talking about more than just going "nah, this won't work." I want to hear tweaks, counter-suggestions, modifications. I want to see people take the idea and run with it, not a bunch of defeatists stubbornly claiming that SE won't do anything so let's just add more dps.

Overall, I'm seeing a lot of regular posters in this thread who can't walk the talk they're talking. You have people complain about dps and a lack of complexity, so I offer an option that increases both (by a larger margin than is suggested elsewhere no less) and suddenly it's all about ability bloat and then the goal posts move. "Shallow complexity." What the fuck even is that? Please, enlighten me.

[Awha]

Exactly this. The past 20 pages of this thread, no one has offered any suggestion to increase tank "complexity" or "engagement." It's just been whining for more damage and "heals shouldn't out dps tanks" and a bunch of defeatist resignation about fight design.

Time to put up or shut up. Start offering suggestions that are meaningful. Open yourself up to criticism. Try to fix the actual problem instead of throwing a band-aid arbitrary amount of dps at tanks and calling it a day. If you can't do that, then shut up and accept that you're simply whining because you want a bigger bar on the graph.

The problem is changes required to make tanking more complex and engaging would not happen this expansion, so while I agree discussion around that topic will be helpful it does nothing for how tanks feel right now, and if adding an extra 1k damage even if it is pseudo feeling and effect would at the very least show SE is trying to make an effort to make it so tanks feels listened to and engaged.

While not the best metric I understand, for the longest time contribution to the group at least from my experience has always been measured by ones DPS while being able to perform their respected role. Now I get it is just a number and as a tank I should not be bothered that a healer breaths down my neck having to press fewer buttons, but the perception remains and it is not a great feeling personally, and do think many tanks feel this way also.

[Quor]

The problem is changes required to make tanking more complex and engaging would not happen this expansion, so while I agree discussion around that topic will be helpful it does nothing for how tanks feel right now, and if adding an extra 1k damage even if it is pseudo feeling and effect would at the very least show SE is trying to make an effort to make it so tanks feels listened to and engaged.

True, changes likely won't happen until 6.0. Doesn't mean we shouldn't bang on about them right now. The dev team is currently working on 6.0 as we speak; if we generate buzz about the state of tanks right now and how the tank playerbase wants the role to change, then we get in on the ground floor of things so to speak. If we begin talking about tank changes in the months leading up to 6.0 it's already going to be too late. Now is exactly the time to make your voice heard about how you want tank engagement/complexity to be increased, and in what ways it could be increased.

While not the best metric I understand, for the longest time contribution to the group at least from my experience has always been measured by ones DPS while being able to perform their respected role. Now I get it is just a number and as a tank I should not be bothered that a healer breaths down my neck having to press fewer buttons, but the perception remains and it is not a great feeling personally, and do think many tanks feel this way also.

Again, I mentioned this earlier, but there is this baseline assumption that all tanks and healers will perform their primary role flawlessly, so therefore the only differentiation is in the form of dps. This is a false premise, as a tank who does not mitigate or position correctly, or a healer who does not heal, WILL. WIPE. RAIDS. All dps measurements are done on the given basis that tanking mechanics and healing mechanics will be performed flawlessly. This is a terrible assumption to make, as it completely undersells the importance of actually doing tank/heal stuff in a raid. The complexity of healer dps doesn't come down to how many damage skills they have; it comes down to how many GCD's they can free up from doing actual healing that they then dedicate to dps. It's a complexity not unlike what you find playing a BLM, where an encyclopedic knowledge of the fight is necessary, so as to know exactly what can be GCD'd and when so that there are as few actual healing GCD's as is necessary, with all other healing filled in by oGCD's where possible.

The same idea applies to tanks as well. All tank dps is predicated upon actually doing the tank mechanics correctly. Again, an argument can be made for the lack of (or ease of dealing with) tank mechanics in this current raid tier. For that, I say two things; first, we are only in the first raid tier, which SE has stated they wanted to be easier for people to get into than previous first raid tiers. This implies the second and third tiers will be more complex relative to the first. Secondly, and going back to my previous point above, now is the time to talk about the ease of tank mechanics and let SE know that tanks want more complexity, both within the jobs themselves and during the fights. The answer is NOT to shrug and go "gib dps plz" and call it a day.