Idea: Merit system

[Nalien]

In what way?

The majority of content can be beaten with multiple players straight up missing, nevermind their item level. Various other pieces of content straight up cap item level too (Eureka and Treasure Maps spring to mind), or straight up don't use gear to begin with (PvP, Deep Dungeons).

It's essentially a progression system that exists solely for Ultimate, I wouldn't even say Savage strictly needs it anymore... Savage gets beaten day 1 by people in crafted sets, sets which make grinding the previous patches highest item level to be ready for the next a poor joke. The only reason then to get gear from Savage is, as I said, for Ultimate (which, by-the-by, will eventually be item level capped, so...). It will help with prog for Savage, but even if we count that... That brings us to 5 instances in which max item level is remotely relevant... As I said, item level is just completely redundant for most of this game... As such it's stopped being an interesting endgame progression system IMO, it offers no feeling of progressing, even in the content it's relevant in. The sense of progression in XIVs endgame essentially comes entirely from learning mechanics and progressing through the story, IMO (not saying that's entirely a bad thing BTW). Even if I entertain the idea of item level being an endgame progression system, the effect of it is so weak (stats in this game are negligible and boring), and the means for obtaining it so plentiful and down right easy (you can literally never touch Lv80 content and end up gettings tomes for relevant gear), that it's just... Dull...

The patch cycle doesn't help, either... You get max item level, and what's that? The 24 man raid released and everyone can upgrade their tome gear to the same item level while sleeping through content. Knock knock, a new 8 man raid patch with crafted gear that's superior to your current set. Gear is so transient in this game as to be irrelevant as anything but glamour, IMHO. It would be an interesting matter to have a poll on (I miss when Yoshida used these forums for polls), actually... I'm sure I'm probably relatively alone in feeling item level is complete pants, but still. What do people raid for? I'd say to beat a challenge, to play with friends, that sort of thing. "Getting better item level" doesn't remotely register on my radar for that question.

Instead of a Merit System I think I'd prefer a more robust Relic Weapons system, but Lord knows SE will never be able to deliver on that...

[linay]

Somehow I feel that the people who pull high DPS would also be the people who'd have no issue to put in the effort to grind out their merits. But yeah we can't allow dedicated players to get head in any way, rather have them unsub between content patches bc they run out of things to do, that's healthy for a game ^^

So instead you'd have people who would unsub when they find things like grind out merits to be busywork.

...

I think you've just described why item level progression is a good thing. It's simple enough to grasp and not as grindy as it can be or as other systems can get yet still useful but optional at the same time. Look at how many people still complain about solo quests. My guess is many of those complaints would disappear if they'd just have better gear. Max level dungeons also don't have item level cap as far as I know, so better gear is what can save you when other people in your party isn't performing as they should. And if you only play with static, then you can set your own item level depending on the challenge you want to set for your group.

As for relic system, anything that gives core ability would just not work in a vertical progression system in my opinion as it would just be discarded in the next expansion or suddenly not work as well when abilities get changed (pruned/reordered/expanded). That's why item level with "boring" stats works so well from expansion to expansion until a simple stat squish is done whenever they feel the need.

[Nalien]

It's simple enough to grasp and not as grindy as it can be or as other systems can get yet still useful but optional at the same time.

In what way is it useful? What content does item level actually help out with?

Perhaps I should clarify, when I say item level, I mean something you'd actually have to put effort towards getting. You can sleep your way into a full set of i440, heck even a set of i460 given enough weeks. So what purpose does i470 serve in this game? Making the content you just beat to obtain it even easier? It's a non-reward. Just compare the rewards people actually care in this game, to the gear rewards; Mounts. Something like Trials exist almost exclusively for mount farming. The item level from the weapons? Redundant pretty much at release. Relevant item level is something that requires absolutely no effort, and as such the "relevant" item level from raids/etc. offers absolutely no purpose IMHO.

Like I said, the thing to work on and improve in this game isn't your item level, it's learning the mechanics of encounters. That's it. Like I also said, that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does leave an itch thoroughly un-scratched for people who expect RPG elements in a MMORPG. People want a progression system in their RPGs, when you're basically fully geared by default? There's no progression there. You hit the level cap and the thing to work on isn't your equipment, it's learning a set of scripts for boss encounters. That's great for some people, bad for others.

Again, I think Relics are the solution, but SE has casual-ified Relics to such an absurd degree... Not only that but it seems they get pushed back each expansion, too... A Realm Reborn released with A Relic Reborn, and when that content was relevant it was IMO the best piece of progression content this game has offered. Anima weapons took a while to get going in comparison, and Eureka took almost half of Stormbloods lifetime to even get released to lukewarm reception... I wish they'd go back to A Relic Reborn style Relic quests, the whole idea to make Relics a casual reward is absurd to me; Isn't that exactly what tomestone weapons are already? Instead now we get Relics that you can upgrade largely without even using... It's such a pathetic state of progression... Anima was the worst IMO, simply because for the vast majority of that process I was not using the weapon, or even doing Lv60 content... Eureka was at least Lv70 content, if you can call FATEs content, but it was level capped, so the weapon was largely irrelevant until they had the admittedly rather good idea to add Eurekan Effect stats, but that was basically right at the end of the process... Heck most of A Realm Reborns process was awful too, the initial quest was only good because it (mostly) carried over from 1.x, it was the closest this game every came to offering some mid-core content though, now it's Savage and Ultimate for hardcore players, and literally everything else for the super casuals... No inbetween...

[PyurBlue]

Like I said, the thing to work on and improve in this game isn't your item level, it's learning the mechanics of encounters. That's it. Like I also said, that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does leave an itch thoroughly un-scratched for people who expect RPG elements in a MMORPG. People want a progression system in their RPGs, when you're basically fully geared by default? There's no progression there. You hit the level cap and the thing to work on isn't your equipment, it's learning a set of scripts for boss encounters. That's great for some people, bad for others.

I'm one of those player that likes the focus on player skill over gear. It is in my opinion and vastly more interesting form of progression. However FF14 is trying to pull in a wide audience so it has to have different types of content for different players. I don't mind that as long as they're kept separate.

A merit system to grind further stats for your leveled classes is not something that I'd like to see added to the game. It would just be another task you're forced to pursue rather than tackling your own goals. More customization could be interesting, but there is a better way to do it in materia. Expand that system the options and the influence we have within that system and I'd be fine with it. A grindy merit system is something that should be reserved for its own niche I think, like Eureka logos.

[Nalien]

However FF14 is trying to pull in a wide audience so it has to have different types of content for different players.

See, the problem is I don't think that's true. We don't have a lot of different types of content, we have two types of content; Raiding, and everything else. Aside from 5 instances per patch cycle (4 Savage Raids + Ultimate), the rest of the game is just tuned to such an absurdly casual level. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with having casual content, just that I wish there was either some middle ground (there is a distinct lack of mid-tier content with any real purpose) or simply more hardcore content. Having i470 solely for 5 instances really doesn't cut it IMO.

Again, Relics are my solution over something like Merits. Problem is Relics are consistently delayed and increasingly dumbed down to such an utterly meaningless level...

I don't mind that as long as they're kept separate.

What would you say to one piece of content that brings various pieces of content together? My ideal Relic quest is probably something like that... I'd like a process where you upgrade the weapon off the expansions Trials, Deep Dungeon, Treasure Map Dungeon, 24 man Raid, Normal mode Raid, etc. Something that says "Here's all the content we've added, go do it".

And I do think Relic is good if it's useful (but still stick to the item level progression and not give additional abilities), but as you've said, it's been pushed back so long these days that it's mainly there for cosmetics.

Ah, to clarify; I don't want to see abilities on Relic weapons. Well... Not exactly anyway... As I said earlier, I think the Eurekan Effect they added to the tail end of the Eurekan weapons was actually a really good idea (wish it was there from the start). That concept has a lot of potential to add interesting stats and mechanics to Relics, without threatening game balance. The Eureka weapon is by far the best weapon to use in Eureka because of that stat, but that doesn't mean it's the best weapon to use in raiding. If we get more Eureka style content (although if we do, I hope it isn't the only process for the Relic like Eureka was), I think it would be interesting to actually put abilities on the weapons (rather than the Logos system), they could just be Eurekan Effect abilities that only apply in that content. Perfect solution, really. It would make the weapon far more interesting than the "Oh it has more substats I don't care about" we normally get.

Heck, stats like that don't even need to be limited to Relics and combat content. Take Gold Saucer gear as an example. Purely cosmetic stuff, right? But why? Why not have "Increases the chance of winning Triple Triad cards" on a piece of equipment? "Increase Race Chocobo EXP"? "Increase Minion Drop Rate"? They could easily have gear obtained from anywhere, with interesting stats that have purpose, that have zero impact on combat balance. How excited do you think people would be to obtain something like an "Increase Mount Drop Rate" piece of gear? So much they could do with such concepts, but instead we're limited to effectively the same sets of gear ad nauseum.

If you can't tell, I'm a fan of items like the Thief's Glove from classic Final Fantasy games. That I'm more excited when I find a piece of gear like that in an old RPG from the 90s, than I am about any of the gear in this modern MMORPG, is exactly why I have issues with itemization in this game. I want that excitement here, but it's an itch that is unscratched even in most modern RPGs...

[linay]

Ah, to clarify; I don't want to see abilities on Relic weapons. Well... Not exactly anyway... As I said earlier, I think the Eurekan Effect they added to the tail end of the Eurekan weapons was actually a really good idea (wish it was there from the start). That concept has a lot of potential to add interesting stats and mechanics to Relics, without threatening game balance. The Eureka weapon is by far the best weapon to use in Eureka because of that stat, but that doesn't mean it's the best weapon to use in raiding. If we get more Eureka style content (although if we do, I hope it isn't the only process for the Relic like Eureka was), I think it would be interesting to actually put abilities on the weapons (rather than the Logos system), they could just be Eurekan Effect abilities that only apply in that content. Perfect solution, really. It would make the weapon far more interesting than the "Oh it has more substats I don't care about" we normally get.

Heck, stats like that don't even need to be limited to Relics and combat content. Take Gold Saucer gear as an example. Purely cosmetic stuff, right? But why? Why not have "Increases the chance of winning Triple Triad cards" on a piece of equipment? "Increase Race Chocobo EXP"? "Increase Minion Drop Rate"? They could easily have gear obtained from anywhere, with interesting stats that have purpose, that have zero impact on combat balance. How excited do you think people would be to obtain something like an "Increase Mount Drop Rate" piece of gear? So much they could do with such concepts, but instead we're limited to effectively the same sets of gear ad nauseum.

Generally, I would agree to having different gears be useful for different content. Unfortunately, as a tradeoff for being able to play as all the jobs in one character, our inventory system is a weak point and having to keep different gears for different contents might not be a good thing.

Also, in term of exploration content, I'd hope they'd use the open world rather than have another instance that we need to queue for like Eureka. This expansion is perfect for open world exploration considering what we're doing with the raid.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Generally, I would agree to having different gears be useful for different content. Unfortunately, as a tradeoff for being able to play as all the jobs in one character, our inventory system is a weak point and having to keep different gears for different contents might not be a good thing.

Also, in term of exploration content, I'd hope they'd use the open world rather than have another instance that we need to queue for like Eureka. This expansion is perfect for open world exploration considering what we're doing with the raid.

The problem with open world exploration is that the open world is finite.

Ever do a 2.0 relic when it was current? Having several hundred people vying after 10 kills of the same mob, of which only 3-5 spawn, is a nightmare. And that didn't include loot, which open world dungeons and the like would.


People complain about hunts and fates being zerg fests. What makes you think any meaningful content in the open world would be any different?

[Nalien]

Generally, I would agree to having different gears be useful for different content. Unfortunately, as a tradeoff for being able to play as all the jobs in one character, our inventory system is a weak point and having to keep different gears for different contents might not be a good thing.

I feel the Materia system can offer an ideal solution to that. All they need to do is give it a 100% chance to meld and a 100% chance to be retrieved (actually, on the subject of melding... "Increased Meld success rate" would be one hell of a stat, we actually have something similar for Desynthesis already...), then it's a trade off of what? Some minimal Direct Hit loss? Makes melding a bit more of an active process, rather than the meld and forget process we currently have. Slap on a Treasure Hunter stat before doing some more casual content (where, lets be honest, the additional combat stats don't matter in the slightest), take it off and put back Crit or whatever before raiding where Treasure Hunter has no real purpose. Arguably that's a negative, since you'd be using up more combat materia re-melding, but from a market perspective I'd say that's actually a positive?

For a Relic though, I'd say just make it the ultimate weapon for that expansion, with all the special stats... A branching upgrade process where you pick what content branches you want to complete. Don't Raid? Well your Relic never reaches the highest item level. You do Trials? You upgrade the Relic with Trial specific stats, also do Treasure Maps? You upgrade it with Treasure Hunter or something. You get out exactly what you put in, and you can end up with a weapon that's truly deserving of all the fanfare a Relic weapon should have.

People complain about hunts and fates being zerg fests. What makes you think any meaningful content in the open world would be any different?

Simple, all SE needs to do is revive Combat Levequests. Honestly Hunts should be special "endgame" Levequests to begin with... Done. Now the Hunt spawns because you did the Levequest for it, and the Hunt that spawns is claimed by your party and your party alone. The entire server (or datacenter now, I guess) does not, and cannot, swoop in to help you kill it. Slap in a progression system; Do the B Rank Levequest, get item for the A Rank, and so on. Make it so you can't just spam them. Now its a system you can log in and do with your friends, rather than having a schedule dictated to you by Hunt LSs.

Honestly, if I could make one change to fix Eureka, it would have been just that. Change the FATEs to Levequests. Same deal with Hunts, same deal with almost any open world content... World bosses should be a rare exception, not the bleedin norm...

Like I said before, not everything is going to fit my idea of fun, which is why I like seeing separation in the game's content. If a task pushes me too far outside of what I like doing it starts to feel more like a chore. On the other hand though, I'd benefit from having people who don't mind the grind running content I do like. As I don't really chase relics in the first place your idea isn't something that would negatively impact my enjoyment of the game. However if I did decide to go after a relic weapon, I wouldn't want to deal with an overly long to do list in getting it. I wouldn't want to do literally everything, but depending on what the list was I might enjoy the process.

This is why I like the idea of a branching Relic quest, one where you fill out the branches you're interested in. It would have branches for almost every piece of content in the game, but none of them would be a requirement, just a case of "You obtained the Trial weapons, so you can boost your Relic with them", with that particular boost being specific to Trials (maybe it has an extra Totem drop for you, helping you grind additional Trial weapons and/or the Mounts, for example). If you do everything though, then it truly is the ultimate weapon. It would have stats for every piece of content in that expansion, be a relevant weapon for all of them. If you don't like Deep Dungeons though? Well you'd have no need for the effect adding a Deep Dungeon weapon to the Relic would provide, so there's no problem, right? All those content relevant stats could be on their respective weapons, for example. Someone who only Raids gets the Raid weapon, they don't need to merge it with other weapons via the Relic because they don't care about that other content.

Arguably the existing Relics did already achieve "best weapon" status. They eventually reach bootleg Raid weapon item level, and have additional substats to boot, making them by far the best weapons. It's just... That's so boring... There is nothing exciting about seeing high levels of Crit on a Relic weapon for me... I'd be much more excited by stats like "Treasure Hunter" that do something different. If it elicited any response from me, it's the same response as upgrading any piece of equipment, upgrading a weapon from i440 to i450 is the same as upgrading from i450 to i460 in my mind, and Relics have always done the exact same thing... There's nothing different or exciting about them, which I think a Relic type weapon should have... They should be special for more than just their glamour glow.

[PyurBlue]

See, the problem is I don't think that's true. We don't have a lot of different types of content, we have two types of content; Raiding, and everything else. Aside from 5 instances per patch cycle (4 Savage Raids + Ultimate), the rest of the game is just tuned to such an absurdly casual level. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with having casual content, just that I wish there was either some middle ground (there is a distinct lack of mid-tier content with any real purpose) or simply more hardcore content. Having i470 solely for 5 instances really doesn't cut it IMO.

Difficulty wise I agree, FF14 has a severe content gap. Even so I do feel some distinction between the different types of casual content. I don't participate in everything that the game offers because some of it isn't for me. For the most part I enjoy things at high level; Savage, EX, maps, hunts, dungeons. The latter is content that really needs some kind of intermediate difficulty. Expert dungeons tend to be a let down. Nearly everything on that list can be trivialized by 470 gear though.

Again, Relics are my solution over something like Merits. Problem is Relics are consistently delayed and increasingly dumbed down to such an utterly meaningless level...

I don't mind relics, while they're not the kind of thing I would pursue they also don't feel like a necessity. If they're going to be set aside as content for those who are looking for endgame progression, I'm completely fine with that.

What would you say to one piece of content that brings various pieces of content together? My ideal Relic quest is probably something like that... I'd like a process where you upgrade the weapon off the expansions Trials, Deep Dungeon, Treasure Map Dungeon, 24 man Raid, Normal mode Raid, etc. Something that says "Here's all the content we've added, go do it".

Like I said before, not everything is going to fit my idea of fun, which is why I like seeing separation in the game's content. If a task pushes me too far outside of what I like doing it starts to feel more like a chore. On the other hand though, I'd benefit from having people who don't mind the grind running content I do like. As I don't really chase relics in the first place your idea isn't something that would negatively impact my enjoyment of the game. However if I did decide to go after a relic weapon, I wouldn't want to deal with an overly long to do list in getting it. I wouldn't want to do literally everything, but depending on what the list was I might enjoy the process.

[linay]

In what way is it useful? What content does item level actually help out with?

I gave two examples: solo duties when you're not good with your rotation and group duties when the other people are not performing well. And yes, most content do not need as much item level, which is why it's optional and not busy work and that's a good thing. People who want to do harder content will get appropriate item level and higher item level will always make contents easier unless the content is capped.

...

While you might think item level is a non-reward for content that you've just beaten, there is a reason why savage and ultimate still give gear reward as their primary reward, with mount and title as secondary.

And the gearing option is what makes it good. Yes, you can grind out tomestone for a better weapon, but if you can farm trial and get a good enough weapon, that's 1000 tomestones you can use for other things. They're only redundant if you do every content, but not every player does every content, so there are gear options for a variety of content, including crafted gears. Again, that's a good thing.

And I do think Relic is good if it's useful (but still stick to the item level progression and not give additional abilities), but as you've said, it's been pushed back so long these days that it's mainly there for cosmetics.