Chad Mages What else would you want right now for our class

[Ferrinus]

Just for a moment I invite you to consider, that when all is said and done with your plan:
1) Blizzard 2 is still equally forgotten after we get Freeze. We only need one transition tool and Freeze already covers that, and we ideally won't spend enough time in UI to spam anything anyway.
2) Best case scenario, all you've accomplished for Fire 2 by endgame is having it replace Fire 3 as a transition tool in AoE scenarios, since we still wouldn't spam it after getting Flare.
3) You've introduced a penalty to Freeze -- a skill we use in end-game -- in order to advance another skill that will still largely get phased out during the leveling process, just slower. Congrats?

The problem is, you can't really have B2 become Freeze and F2 become Flare because the former's a strict upgrade while the latter isn't - F2 doesn't cost all your mana and take 4 seconds to cast. Also, that leaves the quirk in our AoE rotation where using F3 to swap to astral on 5+ targets is actually a dps loss. So, I think giving F2 F3-like functionality actually works really well - it lets you swap while maximizing the damage of both your cycle's flares and works as more conventional spammable AoE in earlier levels.
B2 ends up much more marginal (as does B1, which is like... a way to keep UI going if you have a single GCD left and want to add a teeny bit more damage? This is where making F1 and B1 both instant casts and getting rid of Scathe all together really appeals) but I'd prefer that to it vanishing all together.

If it was feasible, I'd love for Freeze to also do 260 potency to one target and 40% less to the rest, except it would end up replacing B3!

[Rilifane]

Sure, as soon as you get up to level 72... Until then? There's been absolutely no effort to fix old idiosyncrasies that take performance out of the hand of the player and solely into the mercy of, say, the server tick. Those issues may be minor, but it's still annoying to see the entire mechanic of MP margins removed just to avoid actually fixing the issue (which has been there, unmitigateably since they removed mana-shadowing, and remains up until ShB levels).

Meanwhile, Fire II? Useless. Blizzard I and II? Useless. Blizzard IV in AoE? Useless. I'd be okay with situational usefulness, but outright traps?

I'm mainly talking about max level here as all classes have skills that become less useful if not downright obsolete. Escpecially classes that has been around since ARR and underwent frequent changes. Personally I don't think it's that big of an issue. The roation evolves and changes and some skills fall behind and only remain useful when hitting low level content in roulettes. Skills gradually expand and the gameplay changes with it.
Cure I and Medica I are basically useless once you get past a certain level and Cure III is only very rarely used during stack up mechanics in ex/ savage and even then it's preferred to exhaust other options first. Skills lose their value over time and are mainly kept for low level content. And below a certain level, Blizzard I has it's use, same with Fire II.
Blizzard II needs to be targeted just like Fire II so you can properly use it. But why would Blizzard IV need to be useful in AoE rotation? It's a ST filler, period.

Server ticks cause problems for a number of classes and that so much is tied to them while at the same time being unpredictable is a nuisance, that much is true.
I much prefer systems like in WoW where hots/ dots always tick in set intervalls, depending on haste, after you applied them.
The tiny second you sometimes have to wait after getting back into UI to continue happily flaring away is awkward and disruptive and at max level, escpecially at higher spell speed tiers, server ticks can cause problems like not getting the 2nd tick within 2 GCDs and having to resort to a 3rd cast in UI to get back to 10k.
Nonetheless BLM is in a really good spot, escpecially at max level.

[Archwizard]

The problem is, you can't really have B2 become Freeze and F2 become Flare because the former's a strict upgrade while the latter isn't - F2 doesn't cost all your mana and take 4 seconds to cast.

That hardly matters if it's still an upgrade to PPS and overall PPM. You might have had a point if there was ever a time where you would have both and use both -- spamming F2 in AoE and ending in Flare for instance -- but as it stands Fire 2 is completely phased out before you even get Flare, so the effective upgrade is still viable.

Also, that leaves the quirk in our AoE rotation where using F3 to swap to astral on 5+ targets is actually a dps loss.

Define "actually a DPS loss", since a loss means there is something to compare to. Compared to just spamming Freeze and never getting Flare out? Compared to hitting Transpose and rebuilding before Flare?
Are we saying hitting Flare in ice phase and getting one more Flare in AF is more PPM than a quick Fire 3 and two Flares in AF thanks to IUH? Because if that's the case -- and ignoring that Transpose is still presently an option -- my suggestion to have Flare interact with Aspect Mastery to not consume IUH is still available, considering that that seems like an oversight that they don't already.

B2 ends up much more marginal (as does B1, which is like... a way to keep UI going if you have a single GCD left and want to add a teeny bit more damage? This is where making F1 and B1 both instant casts and getting rid of Scathe all together really appeals) but I'd prefer that to it vanishing all together.

If it was feasible, I'd love for Freeze to also do 260 potency to one target and 40% less to the rest, except it would end up replacing B3!

One other thing I failed to point out as a flaw with your design: We don't just go straight into using half-cast Freezes to transition until we get Aspect Mastery. Before that point we have to Transpose after Flare, which goes back to "you just gave Freeze a 4-second cast time in UI phase".

[Shurrikhan]

I'm mainly talking about max level here as all classes have skills that become less useful if not downright obsolete.

Name one other skill that becomes rotationally worthless without being outright upgraded (e.g. Straight Shot) or complemented (e.g. Kaiten as used on combo finishers)?

No one else just leaves rotational items there, in a far worse relative place than at level 50, as joke traps for players.

One other thing I failed to point out as a flaw with your design: We don't just go straight into using half-cast Freezes to transition until we get Aspect Mastery. Before that point we have to Transpose after Flare, which goes back to "you just gave Freeze a 4-second cast time in UI phase".

Also, this. Could we please stop designing solely around max level to the detriment of the leveling experience?

[Ferrinus]

That hardly matters if it's still an upgrade to PPS and overall PPM. You might have had a point if there was ever a time where you would have both and use both -- spamming F2 in AoE and ending in Flare for instance -- but as it stands Fire 2 is completely phased out before you even get Flare, so the effective upgrade is still viable.

But, it wouldn't be if its cast time and MP cost were reduced to F1's. In that case, F2 would be useful for AoE before level 68.

Define "actually a DPS loss", since a loss means there is something to compare to. Compared to just spamming Freeze and never getting Flare out? Compared to hitting Transpose and rebuilding before Flare?

Compared to using Flare to swap from Umbral to Astral. You know, the "cold flare" AoE rotation that's technically superior to using F3 when you've got 5+ targets? If F2 could work as, effectively, an AoE F3, it would have a place at level 68+.

One other thing I failed to point out as a flaw with your design: We don't just go straight into using half-cast Freezes to transition until we get Aspect Mastery. Before that point we have to Transpose after Flare, which goes back to "you just gave Freeze a 4-second cast time in UI phase".

You'd be able to use it to transition to Umbral from Astral after AoEing a bunch of targets from levels 35 to 49, or after doing a Flare -> Convert ->F2 between levels 50 and 67. I could see going farther and giving Freeze, specifically, a 0 base MP cost or something as a mirror to Flare's "all" MP cost, but even if nothing of the sort happens Freeze falling out of use for 17 levels is acceptable given that it still ends up with a place at level 68 and higher.

[Archwizard]

But, it wouldn't be if its cast time and MP cost were reduced to F1's. In that case, F2 would be useful for AoE before level 68.

Have you crunched the numbers on that or are you just crossing your fingers?

Compared to using Flare to swap from Umbral to Astral. You know, the "cold flare" AoE rotation that's technically superior to using F3 when you've got 5+ targets? If F2 could work as, effectively, an AoE F3, it would have a place at level 68+.

So you want to hamfist in an ability that's dead to the community for a technicality, in lieu of an option like, say, just patching Flare to actually be affected by Aspect Mastery so you still have Umbral Hearts after a Cold Flare (which I think we can agree is a massive oversight that it doesn't already)?

You'd be able to use it to transition to Umbral from Astral after AoEing a bunch of targets from levels 35 to 49, or after doing a Flare -> Convert ->F2 between levels 50 and 67. I could see going farther and giving Freeze, specifically, a 0 base MP cost or something as a mirror to Flare's "all" MP cost, but even if nothing of the sort happens Freeze falling out of use for 17 levels is acceptable given that it still ends up with a place at level 68 and higher.

Are you aware of the difference that that 17 levels makes? That's all of the post-ARR content, the entirety of Heavensward and most of Stormblood, for a first-time leveler that's nearly a month and even for someone with Armory bonus that could be weeks. Compare that to the gap from 35 to 50, which is like... A day? Three tops?
Not to mention how incredibly disjointed it is to get a spell you use for 14 levels, ignore for 17 and then recover for 12 more.

[Shurrikhan]

So you want to hamfist in an ability that's dead to the community for a technicality, in lieu of an option like, say, just patching Flare to actually be affected by Aspect Mastery so you still have Umbral Hearts after a Cold Flare (which I think we can agree is a massive oversight that it doesn't already)?

Neither option should come in lieu of the other. There's no point in adding and then leaving a skill that has zero place past level 56. Though, neither do I like that a seemingly obvious use of the another skill is exempt on a technicality. Both are awful.

Are you aware of the difference that that 17 levels makes? That's all of the post-ARR content, the entirety of Heavensward and most of Stormblood, for a first-time leveler that's nearly a month and even for someone with Armory bonus that could be weeks. Compare that to the gap from 35 to 50, which is like... A day? Three tops?
Not to mention how incredibly disjointed it is to get a spell you use for 14 levels, ignore for 17 and then recover for 12 more.

I'd rather avoid both gaps, but, yes, I'd certainly take 15 quickly-progressed levels over 17 of the slowest, especially if taking, leaving, and then again taking it.

[Ferrinus]

Have you crunched the numbers on that or are you just crossing your fingers?

180 potency on 1 target versus 80 potency on multiple targets. Better than F1 on 3 and better than F4 on 4. Most jobs do this kind of math when choosing single target vs. multitarget abilities on non-massive pulls.

So you want to hamfist in an ability that's dead to the community for a technicality, in lieu of an option like, say, just patching Flare to actually be affected by Aspect Mastery so you still have Umbral Hearts after a Cold Flare (which I think we can agree is a massive oversight that it doesn't already)?

Nothing hamfisted about it. There's an obvious gap in the fire spellset (an AoE that swaps you to AF3 with your mana pool intact) and a longstanding AoE fire spell that falls out of use long before level 80. It's a match made in heaven! The B2/Freeze stuff is a bit questionable but making F2 effectively an area of effect F3 is a slam dunk.

I don't agree that flare consuming umbral hearts when cast out of ice mode is an oversight. If Fire 2 simply didn't exist at all, I could see using Flare as the swap-to-AF spell as well as your heavy-hitting AF AoE, but given that F2 needs a home there's no reason to change Flare's behavior in that way.

Are you aware of the difference that that 17 levels makes? That's all of the post-ARR content, the entirety of Heavensward and most of Stormblood, for a first-time leveler that's nearly a month and even for someone with Armory bonus that could be weeks. Compare that to the gap from 35 to 50, which is like... A day? Three tops?
Not to mention how incredibly disjointed it is to get a spell you use for 14 levels, ignore for 17 and then recover for 12 more.

Making sure every spell is useful at level 80 is more important to me than making sure every spell is useful for every level in the entire progression, but like I said, you could just make Freeze cost 0mp by default, regardless of aspect, (Flare costs All, so Freeze costs None, see?) and fix even this issue.

[Archwizard]

180 potency on 1 target versus 80 potency on multiple targets. Better than F1 on 3 and better than F4 on 4. Most jobs do this kind of math when choosing single target vs. multitarget abilities on non-massive pulls.

That's the vacuum of the one spell against single-target spells. How about comparing its impact to just using Flare during AF3, in the context of the AoE rotation as a whole?
It's the same way we came out with the numbers that Freeze spam was more potent than a mixed rotation with F2, comparing their rotations' average potency-per-second rather than each spell's potency-per-cast.
So show me the numbers on this ideal rotation and compare them to what we have before you tell me it's better, because your changes amount to more F2s (not stronger, just more) and the last time that math was done, more F2s brought that average down.

Nothing hamfisted about it. There's an obvious gap in the fire spellset (an AoE that swaps you to AF3 with your mana pool intact) and a longstanding AoE fire spell that falls out of use long before level 80. It's a match made in heaven!
The B2/Freeze stuff is a bit questionable but making F2 effectively an area of effect F3 is a slam dunk.

I don't agree that flare consuming umbral hearts when cast out of ice mode is an oversight. If Fire 2 simply didn't exist at all, I could see using Flare as the swap-to-AF spell as well as your heavy-hitting AF AoE, but given that F2 needs a home there's no reason to change Flare's behavior in that way.

• There's already an AoE that gives you AF3. Aspect Mastery reads without ambiguity, and I quote, "Accumulating full stacks of either Astral Fire or Umbral Ice then casting a spell of the opposite element will consume no MP" -- yet Flare is the one unmentioned exception to this, whether or not you have Umbral Hearts. You want a match made in heaven, fix that interaction and marry those two, because you're going to have a very hard time convincing me that the new trait is meant to ignore it in the same expansion that specifically changed Freeze to make Flare usage smoother.
• "If Fire 2 simply didn't exist at all" is quite amusing justification in this case, considering you're attempting to retool it into a completely different ability -- Fire 2 as you wish it to be doesn't exist. You're tuning more than just the potency, but the overall cast rate and its impact on the rotation, creating a new tool with an old name, used in a completely different way from its namesake.
  Even the existence of what we have (as with Blizzard 2) has been considered an "oversight" from level 50 on. But again, this is literally why I stated that they should simply upgrade to Flare and Freeze, as your behavior with regards to AoE is rather permanently affected either way.
• I find it quite curious that you advocate creating more parallels in the positions of our Fire and Ice spells, yet also want Fire 2 to carve out a spot as the parallel to Freeze for the purpose of swapping phases in AoE. You also haven't really covered how you intend to rescue its actual counterpart B2 from its status as a bloat skill.
  Because, and I can't seem to stress this enough, that's what Fire 2 and Blizzard 2 are: bloat skills. Ones you're attempting to justify as more than that for niche purposes, but bloat all the same.

Making sure every spell is useful at level 80 is more important to me than making sure every spell is useful for every level in the entire progression

And what was your justification for nerfing the cast time of Freeze in the first place, again? "Making Freeze spam less attractive than Fire 2" wasn't it, which is only a problem while leveling?

but like I said, you could just make Freeze cost 0mp by default, regardless of aspect, (Flare costs All, so Freeze costs None, see?) and fix even this issue.

Then we end up with the humorous possibility of Flare returning to its original form, meaning saving Swiftcast for Flare in single-target to burn out the last of our MP as a prototype of Despair -- before we even have Aspect Mastery -- and then using Freeze in place of Blizzard 3. If the numbers happen to support that possibility now then it'll cascade to Flare and Freeze being nerfed in prevention.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't get why we don't just solidify the fundamental aspects of the job.

1. Give each stack 20% off cast times and mana cost of the opposite element while increasing Fire damage by 20% per AF stack and UI tick strength by 20% per UI stack. (Adjust initial UI strength to compensate, or even just increase the base MP rate uniquely for BLMs, and just have UI affect that.)
2. UI ticks follow their own timer, which continues progressing through AF (just locked out of actually finishing the tick), so your first tick is always instant, meaning you're never completely locked out of any and all actions. Swapping to UI3 will already grant access to any action from the initial tick alone, while UI1 will at least grant access immediately to all Ice spells. No need for Aspect Mastery; the issue's already solved at level 1.
3. Give each Fire and Blizzard spell the same potencies as their counterpart (this really just means increasing the Fire potencies to compensate for going from 40/60/80 to 20/40/60 and then buffing the Ice spells to match). Blizzard II is now target-based alike to Fire II. Simple, intuitive.
4. Don't exempt Flare from the stack bonuses. Flare would normally cost all of your MP. Now, Flare will cost 40% of your maximum MP (100%-60%=40%). Freeze continues to shift you to UI3, alike to Flare. Voila, you have an AoE 3-stack-shift for either one as of level 50. Again, simple, intuitive.

It's... not hard.