New Mentor requirements

[Dirwen]

The only problem I have is that new people won't have the option to farm that mentor mount now. I dunno why SE have to make it almost impossible to be a true mount collector in this game.

[Bewhatever]

The only problem I have is that new people won't have the option to farm that mentor mount now. I dunno why SE have to make it almost impossible to be a true mount collector in this game.

IMHO there should be *no* rewards for mentoring. Otherwise one gets people signing up with no intention of mentoring, only of seeking the reward.

[Dirwen]

IMHO there should be *no* rewards for mentoring. Otherwise one gets people signing up with no intention of mentoring, only of seeking the reward.

As someone said in a post in this very thread. There is no need to be a mentor to help people. On occasions I have helped people when I didn't feel like being a selfish bastard that day.

[RoyalBeef]

Won't be around to see it, because I am an old mentor who will be weeded out. One that rolls enough alts and has enough memory to remember what it's like to be a fresh and mostly clueless player about FF specific gameplay as well as understanding what's it's like to be a returning player who kinda remembers but basically has to start over. Catching up returning players on changes, helping them figure out quickbars/abilities and how to get themselves back up to speed without negatively impacting PuGs right off the bat, helping new players understand how to think about the game and different classes, as well as answer specific questions, and general "what does this mean" questions, how to socially navigate parts of the game, guiding new crafters in all of it... and often making sure that the questions get answered from THEIR perspective, in context.....

...while setting expectations about what a real (and helpful) community looks like...

... those are all things that I believe mentors are here to do.

Lots of newer mentors do that as well. Because they are closer in experience to all of that.


The older mentors are not necessarily those that are doing hardcore endgame and promoting their rigid expectations about theorycrafting as fact and insisting on exacting rotations so that they are never slowed down by "scrubs".

Sadly, the older mentors that do (previous sentence) are precisely the toxic ones who have met the newer commendations requirements and they will be the larger percentage of those that remain, just from pure number of hours played over 'x' number of years.

Doubt those older mentors that aren't focused on sprouts will be the ones to go.

The other mentors that never help in NN (yes, they might in dungeons, and elsewhere, but we are talking NN), are possibly the ones who joined only for rewards. The only way they would be weeded out is if they have not bothered to run enough PuGs to meet the new requirement (resting on their "laurels" so to speak.)


And the new mentors that are good but have not been a mentor long enough (pure hours at this point), may also end up leaving.

The new system won't necessarily solve the problem and may make it worse.


Quoting a textbook on urban studies (1970's - yes, I'm old enough): "Any intuitive change to a complex system, will inevitably leave that system worse off."

Except it's not a complex system. Not at all. You're basically saying that most good mentors have less commendations than toxic ones. Which makes zero sense.

[Bewhatever]

As someone said in a post in this very thread. There is no need to be a mentor to help people. On occasions I have helped people when I didn't feel like being a selfish bastard that day.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, NN chat (when not being spammed by toxic "mentors") is a place to hear the questions sprouts are asking, and answer them. It's really the only thing mentor status is good for.

[Bewhatever]

Except it's not a complex system. Not at all. You're basically saying that most good mentors have less commendations than toxic ones. Which makes zero sense.

I nonconcur. For those players who choose to participate in FF endgame, and therefore have to tune their rotations/gear/etc to the max, and can't accomplish endgame goals unless all of the other players in their 4/8/24 player group have done the same, a culture of demanding performance from their teammates, and being frustrated/angry when that performance is not delivered, emerges. I consider this culture just as toxic as the raider culture of the original WoW.

So we get some new player asking a very basic question (how in the world should I think about doing my very first materia meld, at level 20, with maybe 10 hours played, and no clue) and suddenly two mentors are in NN arguing the fine points of endgame materia selection with very strong statements about the utter incompetence of someone making any choice other than theirs. That is a worthwhile discussion in an endgame linkshell. It is extraordinarily destructive and toxic to the new player experience, because between the lines it tells the new player that if they do not magically and suddenly understand this arcane topic, their reputation will be tarred forever and they will not be welcome even in PUGs.

So yes, for the most part someone deep in endgame has no business coaching rank novices, only someone who actually remembers what it was like to be that new level 20 trying to do their first materia meld, and can give a level appropriate response.

"Any intuitive change to a complex system will inevitably leave that system worse off." in this case, that means selecting mentors for utter newbies by how deep they've been in endgame for how many years will increase the probability of toxic responses to reasonable newbie questions, and those toxic responses will drive the new players away from the game.

[RoyalBeef]

and being frustrated/angry when that performance is not delivered,

There's the common misconception. While of course people with low frustration tolerance exist in all skill levels, learning and clearing high end content requires more patience and the ability to keep cool per se. Helpers that already cleared are usually not the ones that ragequit, it's often the people that didn't clear yet and who are making the mistakes that disband without a word after 3 wipes, leaving the helpers behind with nothing but time wasted ^^

So yes, for the most part someone deep in endgame has no business coaching rank novices, only someone who actually remembers what it was like to be that new level 20 trying to do their first materia meld, and can give a level appropriate response.

Sharing knowledge does in no way require memory of what it ws like when you didn't have that knowledge. I can teach people how to read without remembering how I felt whilelearning to read in Kindergarden.[/QUOTE]

"Any intuitive change to a complex system will inevitably leave that system worse off." in this case, that means selecting mentors for utter newbies by how deep they've been in endgame for how many years will increase the probability of toxic responses to reasonable newbie questions, and those toxic responses will drive the new players away from the game.

People who are deep into endgame most likely won't run a lot of random PUGs, so their commendation count should probably be a lot lower than that of non endgame players who does daily roulette and DF content on a daily basis.

The thesis that the longer you are in endgame the more likely you are to be "toxic" is something you made up and has zero ground in reality.

[Galenini]

Except it's not a complex system. Not at all. You're basically saying that most good mentors have less commendations than toxic ones. Which makes zero sense.

I am not equating good mentors with ONLY time spent in game. Therefore, there may be many good mentors who have not had the time to accrue the necessary commendations.

At this point in time, the amount of commendations are often just a reflection of how long someone has been playing a tank and/or healer in PuGs. Awards for showing up. Often has nothing to do with knowledge, willingness or ability to help.

Again, commendations do not necessarily measure the thing that SE, in their culture, believes it currently does. Tweaking that in an intuitive change may not produce the desired results.


We have seen the "toxic" mentors in NN chat. We have heard from new players who felt intimidated. And we have seen older mentors knee-jerk respond to questions from sprouts assuming that the sprout is talking about endgame stats/melding etcetera, without taking into consideration that the sprout is not even at that level, nevermind understanding the context of the question.

Ability to answer the question being asked often requires placing oneself in the mindset of the person asking the question. Remembering what is was like is not necessary. Being aware, however, helps.

[RoyalBeef]

I am not equating good mentors with ONLYtime spent in game.

At this point in time, the amount of commendations are often just a reflection of how long someone has been playing a tank and/or healer in PuGs. Awards for showing up. Often has nothing to do with knowledge, willingness or ability to help.

Again, commendations do not necessarily measure the thing that SE, in their culture, believes it currently does.

d'accord

There are good mentors with a lot of time spent ingame and good mentors with little time spent in game.
There are bad mentors with a lot of time spent ingame and bad mentors with little tim spent ingame.

What I got from your post is that stripping those with the little time of the mentor status would result in the percentage of bad mentors going up like a cataclysmic event, when there is no proof that people with more playtime are on average worse mentors than people with less playtime. If anything the good:bad ratio should remain pretty stable, just with a lower number of mentors overall.

[Galenini]

d'accord

There are good mentors with a lot of time spent ingame and good mentors with little time spent in game.
There are bad mentors with a lot of time spent ingame and bad mentors with little tim spent ingame.

What I got from your post is that stripping those with the little time of the mentor status would result in the percentage of bad mentors going up like a cataclysmic event, when there is no proof that people with more playtime are on average worse mentors than people with less playtime. If anything the good:bad ratio should remain pretty stable, just with a lower number of mentors overall.

My apologies. That was not my intent. I get passionate about this and often fail to adequately convey my meaning. Thank you for understanding and pointing out how it can be viewed ^_^


And yes, there are a LOT of really good mentors who have been around for years and they drop everything to spend time with new players, patiently explaining and running them through dungeons.

Both ends of the spectrum there.

And you are correct, one of the outcomes could be less mentors overall without accomplishing reducing the amount of bad ones. (Not the desired result, I think.)