New Mentor requirements

[Lilseph]

Community moderation would attract an insane amount of drama. We have plenty as it is.

[Galenini]

The problem with NN chat, and the mentor system, and being a moderator (been there done that in other games), is watching other mentors abuse it. The proposed changes to the system will not eliminate that, won't address it, and have the potential to make it worse by creating even more of a "elitist jerks" culture within the chat channel.

This is the first MMO I've played (over dozens in the last 20 years) that has had a "volunteer" in game mentor system - (mind you, one that requires qualification) - that has actually survived beyond 6 months. Most other devs have eventually shut them down because of abuse (and this was long before reddit / 4chan became the de facto "culture" for chatting in game - another issue entirely in NN.) I must commend SE for stubbornly adhering to a system that may work better culturally in Japan given norms there, than in other areas of the world.

Again, SE needs to take a close look at exactly what they THINK they are measuring with commendations (it is not necessarily player knowledge, nor is it necessarily player "character" as defined by community-oriented desire to help).

At the very start of the mentor program, when I joined, as well as the few rest of us who did, it was from a genuine desire to help the community we belonged to for the benefit of all of us, as well as a real desire to give back. Rewards / crowns were (and to me and many: STILL) are meaningless. I don't run with a crown on, many of us don't. I've never used the roulette and don't ever plan to.

There have been struggles in NN with mentors who have different values about NN's intended use. Some want to use it as their own (reddit/4chan) entertainment device and have said so explicitly in chat, others believe it's there for chastising other mentors over raid issues (playstyle/gear/stats/etcetera), others who have never said anything in over 6 months (at least 70+ by this count), mentors who just enjoying abusing their position by repeatedly kicking people from chat, including other mentors. (Once upon a time, the reason for kicking WAS logged and reviewed... but that was back when the dinosaurs roamed in the early days of mentoring.)

I haven't seen any comprehensive good mentor systems that don't eventually get abused. Would love to post what I think might help. I can only analyze what hasn't. And try to backtrack to just how we arrived at the junction where we went from players who wanted to be part of the solution, to players that were causing the problem.

Crown Emblem and Rewards appear to be part of the problem. As well as commendations.

As well as CURRENT lack of clarity on NN's purpose. (We are seeing divergent opinions on this thread.) Clear statements from SE, posted visibly, would go a long way to helping mentors self-moderate the channel.

Abuse happens. Is it lack of prevention, lack of monitoring, or lack of correcting? Or all three?

I appreciate SE giving me the opportunity to contribute all these years, and now, the opportunity with the new higher "gate", to decide if I want to continue in a system that allows the abuse.

Sadly, the ones that will be affected the most are the new players.

- Open to having my perception corrected



PS: my best recommendations at the moment are:

Eliminate the rewards.

Review the qualification process and understand what is being measured and how that is being exploited.

Clarify intended purpose for NN (in writing as something everyone can point to when disagreements over use occur.)

[TheForce]

I'm close to 9000 instances completed since launch.

5ish 2.0 relics completed will do that.

Flex was unnecessary, but I'll still respect it.

[LalaRu]

Let's see how it will be on 5.2 when old Mentors are weeded out.
Right now we are in a situation with too much randoms that joined Mentor because too low reqs and the result is what we have today. Clearly, higher reqs doesn't relate to a "quality mentor" but with less and more seasoned people wanna see how it goes, before talking of additional measures.

Don't forget that being mentor is just be able to answer basic questions about the game from the sprouts, and invite novices to the NN. The idea I saw here about a mentor that must be over the top with knowledge and able to perform savage level duties is out of the scope. What a mentor is, is clearly stated when you join the program: I guess too much people will fast-read too fast, or skipping altogether, any text the NPC gave to them when they joined the program.

[Galenini]

Let's see how it will be on 5.2 when old Mentors are weeded out.
Right now we are in a situation with too much randoms that joined Mentor because too low reqs and the result is what we have today. Clearly, higher reqs doesn't relate to a "quality mentor" but with less and more seasoned people wanna see how it goes, before talking of additional measures.

Don't forget that being mentor is just be able to answer basic questions about the game from the sprouts, and invite novices to the NN. The idea I saw here about a mentor that must be over the top with knowledge and able to perform savage level duties is out of the scope. What a mentor is, is clearly stated when you join the program: I guess too much people will fast-read too fast, or skipping altogether, any text the NPC gave to them when they joined the program.

Won't be around to see it, because I am an old mentor who will be weeded out. One that rolls enough alts and has enough memory to remember what it's like to be a fresh and mostly clueless player about FF specific gameplay as well as understanding what's it's like to be a returning player who kinda remembers but basically has to start over. Catching up returning players on changes, helping them figure out quickbars/abilities and how to get themselves back up to speed without negatively impacting PuGs right off the bat, helping new players understand how to think about the game and different classes, as well as answer specific questions, and general "what does this mean" questions, how to socially navigate parts of the game, guiding new crafters in all of it... and often making sure that the questions get answered from THEIR perspective, in context.....

...while setting expectations about what a real (and helpful) community looks like...

... those are all things that I believe mentors are here to do.

Lots of newer mentors do that as well. Because they are closer in experience to all of that.


The older mentors are not necessarily those that are doing hardcore endgame and promoting their rigid expectations about theorycrafting as fact and insisting on exacting rotations so that they are never slowed down by "scrubs".

Sadly, the older mentors that do (previous sentence) are precisely the toxic ones who have met the newer commendations requirements and they will be the larger percentage of those that remain, just from pure number of hours played over 'x' number of years.

Doubt those older mentors that aren't focused on sprouts will be the ones to go.

The other mentors that never help in NN (yes, they might in dungeons, and elsewhere, but we are talking NN), are possibly the ones who joined only for rewards. The only way they would be weeded out is if they have not bothered to run enough PuGs to meet the new requirement (resting on their "laurels" so to speak.)


And the new mentors that are good but have not been a mentor long enough (pure hours at this point), may also end up leaving.

The new system won't necessarily solve the problem and may make it worse.


Quoting a textbook on urban studies (1970's - yes, I'm old enough): "Any intuitive change to a complex system, will inevitably leave that system worse off."

[Dirwen]

The only problem I have is that new people won't have the option to farm that mentor mount now. I dunno why SE have to make it almost impossible to be a true mount collector in this game.

[Bewhatever]

The only problem I have is that new people won't have the option to farm that mentor mount now. I dunno why SE have to make it almost impossible to be a true mount collector in this game.

IMHO there should be *no* rewards for mentoring. Otherwise one gets people signing up with no intention of mentoring, only of seeking the reward.

[Dirwen]

IMHO there should be *no* rewards for mentoring. Otherwise one gets people signing up with no intention of mentoring, only of seeking the reward.

As someone said in a post in this very thread. There is no need to be a mentor to help people. On occasions I have helped people when I didn't feel like being a selfish bastard that day.

[RoyalBeef]

Won't be around to see it, because I am an old mentor who will be weeded out. One that rolls enough alts and has enough memory to remember what it's like to be a fresh and mostly clueless player about FF specific gameplay as well as understanding what's it's like to be a returning player who kinda remembers but basically has to start over. Catching up returning players on changes, helping them figure out quickbars/abilities and how to get themselves back up to speed without negatively impacting PuGs right off the bat, helping new players understand how to think about the game and different classes, as well as answer specific questions, and general "what does this mean" questions, how to socially navigate parts of the game, guiding new crafters in all of it... and often making sure that the questions get answered from THEIR perspective, in context.....

...while setting expectations about what a real (and helpful) community looks like...

... those are all things that I believe mentors are here to do.

Lots of newer mentors do that as well. Because they are closer in experience to all of that.


The older mentors are not necessarily those that are doing hardcore endgame and promoting their rigid expectations about theorycrafting as fact and insisting on exacting rotations so that they are never slowed down by "scrubs".

Sadly, the older mentors that do (previous sentence) are precisely the toxic ones who have met the newer commendations requirements and they will be the larger percentage of those that remain, just from pure number of hours played over 'x' number of years.

Doubt those older mentors that aren't focused on sprouts will be the ones to go.

The other mentors that never help in NN (yes, they might in dungeons, and elsewhere, but we are talking NN), are possibly the ones who joined only for rewards. The only way they would be weeded out is if they have not bothered to run enough PuGs to meet the new requirement (resting on their "laurels" so to speak.)


And the new mentors that are good but have not been a mentor long enough (pure hours at this point), may also end up leaving.

The new system won't necessarily solve the problem and may make it worse.


Quoting a textbook on urban studies (1970's - yes, I'm old enough): "Any intuitive change to a complex system, will inevitably leave that system worse off."

Except it's not a complex system. Not at all. You're basically saying that most good mentors have less commendations than toxic ones. Which makes zero sense.

[Bewhatever]

Except it's not a complex system. Not at all. You're basically saying that most good mentors have less commendations than toxic ones. Which makes zero sense.

I nonconcur. For those players who choose to participate in FF endgame, and therefore have to tune their rotations/gear/etc to the max, and can't accomplish endgame goals unless all of the other players in their 4/8/24 player group have done the same, a culture of demanding performance from their teammates, and being frustrated/angry when that performance is not delivered, emerges. I consider this culture just as toxic as the raider culture of the original WoW.

So we get some new player asking a very basic question (how in the world should I think about doing my very first materia meld, at level 20, with maybe 10 hours played, and no clue) and suddenly two mentors are in NN arguing the fine points of endgame materia selection with very strong statements about the utter incompetence of someone making any choice other than theirs. That is a worthwhile discussion in an endgame linkshell. It is extraordinarily destructive and toxic to the new player experience, because between the lines it tells the new player that if they do not magically and suddenly understand this arcane topic, their reputation will be tarred forever and they will not be welcome even in PUGs.

So yes, for the most part someone deep in endgame has no business coaching rank novices, only someone who actually remembers what it was like to be that new level 20 trying to do their first materia meld, and can give a level appropriate response.

"Any intuitive change to a complex system will inevitably leave that system worse off." in this case, that means selecting mentors for utter newbies by how deep they've been in endgame for how many years will increase the probability of toxic responses to reasonable newbie questions, and those toxic responses will drive the new players away from the game.