Chad Mages What else would you want right now for our class

[Archwizard]

Aside from that, I want to see more fire/ice symmetry, especially with AoEs:

Fire2 and Blizzard2 are both targeted, 80 potency AoEs with 2.5s cast times and 800mp casting costs. A late-game trait makes them grant three stacks of their respective buff on hit, just like F3/B3, so B2 becomes the go-to way to recover stacks post-death or after some other loss while F3 shifts to fire mode during your AoE rotation.

Meanwhile, Freeze gets a 4.0s base cast time like Flare so spamming it isn’t attractive.

1. "Symmetry" is a strange concept in this context, considering their phases do two objectively different and diametrically opposed things, and these differences are what define their use. If having opposing spells that do the same thing is what you're after, might I suggest RDM instead?

2. Fire 2 and Blizzard 2 don't need to give 3-stacks each, and to be honest it wouldn't make them more attractive if they did. Not only do F3/B3/Flare/Freeze/Despair already provide it (so we would officially have more tools to instantly cap stacks than builders, after which they have no value beyond refreshing), but 80 potency for an AoE is pathetic, which Fire 2 only gets away with early on thanks to AF. Since you mentioned "late game traits" I have to assume you mean to provide a place for them post-50, even though there is presently no place for them in our AoE rotation, which is in a very comfortable spot right now without them.

3. Putting a spell with a lengthy cast in the UI phase means its value will plummet before you finish casting. Freeze being an AoE is largely a courtesy compared to capping UI and a UH stack, since the damage of ice phase pales to fire phase; you basically just want to hit UI3 and pump out as much quick damage as you can before your MP caps and you go back to AF (and once we get Flare, we don't even need to cap!). The only time Freeze spam is attractive is for the period during leveling before you get Flare, and that's mostly because -- again -- Fire 2 is terrible.

[Ferrinus]

1. "Symmetry" is a strange concept in this context, considering their phases do two objectively different and diametrically opposed things, and these differences are what define their use. If having opposing spells that do the same thing is what you're after, might I suggest RDM instead?

Fire 1 and Blizzard 1 have identical base potencies, cast times, and MP costs. Their differences come from stances and traits. The same is true of F3/B3 and F4/B4. So, it'd be elegant if Fire 2 and Blizzard 2 also had identical on-paper stats but were differently useful thanks to stances and traits.

2. Fire 2 and Blizzard 2 don't need to give 3-stacks each, and to be honest it wouldn't make them more attractive if they did. Not only do F3/B3/Flare/Freeze/Despair already provide it (so we would officially have more tools to instantly cap stacks than builders, after which they have no value beyond refreshing), but 80 potency for an AoE is pathetic, which Fire 2 only gets away with early on thanks to AF. Since you mentioned "late game traits" I have to assume you mean to provide a place for them post-50, even though there is presently no place for them in our AoE rotation, which is in a very comfortable spot right now without them.

You missed that I think they should have 2.5s cast times and 800mp costs - same as F1/B1. That means that before level 68 (when "Improved Umbral Heart" allows you to double flare each fire cycle) Fire 2 would be your generic AoE attack vs. 4 targets or more, (vs. 3 or more prior to 60). Between 60 and 68, you might still use F2 instead of F1 to refresh Astral between F4s if there were exactly three enemies.

Past 68, Flare definitively outpaces F2, so what's the use of F2? Well, that's when a trait makes F2 work like F3 when it comes to granting AF3 immediately - you'd use it instead of F3 to swap from UI to AF, so that you never had to cast a "cold flare". Others have suggested this above. Make sense?

3. Putting a spell with a lengthy cast in the UI phase means its value will plummet before you finish casting. Freeze being an AoE is largely a courtesy compared to capping UI and a UH stack, since the damage of ice phase pales to fire phase; you basically just want to hit UI3 and pump out as much quick damage as you can before your MP caps and you go back to AF (and once we get Flare, we don't even need to cap!). The only time Freeze spam is attractive is for the period during leveling before you get Flare, and that's mostly because -- again -- Fire 2 is terrible.

Remember, AF3 halves ice spell cast times. So, you'd still use Freeze after Flare to swap to UI. However, you wouldn't be Freeze for AoE damage between levels 35 and 50 or whatever it is, and you also wouldn't use Freeze to instantly get to UI3 after death or other mishap, instead favoring B2. The idea is to give every single spell some kind of logical use case at every level you have it for.

[Archwizard]

Umbral Soul isn't meant as tool for movement but unavoidable downtimes like E1 add spawn or E3 Maelstrom. It's meant to provide a tool to effectively make use of times without a target. It may be used as a last resort to prevent dropping Enochion in UI, though with how short UI phase is, this shouldn't be an issue. Triple, Swift, Xeno, Firestarter/ Thundercloud procs with Sharpcast available more often, Aetherial Manipulatio, Between the Lines and fast casts are enough mobility tools.

I understand that it's not meant to be a skill for movement phases of encounters. What I'm saying though is that it still contributes to the job's general mobility, largely due to the quite literal ability to maintain Enochian while moving between packs in dungeons but especially since you can re-enter an encounter having skipped past B3/B4 and jump straight to Thunder (ideally off a TC proc) and accelerated F3.

If you have to resort to Scathe, it's almost always because you messed something up and accidentally used a mobility tool too soon.

Which is exactly what I was referring to with regards to my statement that aside from timing out an AF refresh a second sooner, you'd largely just use an instant F1 like Scathe -- a competent BLM would have skipped past using Scathe by means of several other tools to allow them to continue their normal rotation whilst moving.
But again, I already said agree to disagree.

-snip-

I'm not against Fire 2 and Blizzard 2 getting buffs during the leveling phase -- by all means go ahead.
My concern is that you're trying to draw out their lifespan beyond that point to a largely unnecessary degree.

Just for a moment I invite you to consider, that when all is said and done with your plan:
1) Blizzard 2 is still equally forgotten after we get Freeze. We only need one transition tool and Freeze already covers that, and we ideally won't spend enough time in UI to spam anything anyway.
2) Best case scenario, all you've accomplished for Fire 2 by endgame is having it replace Fire 3 as a transition tool in AoE scenarios, since we still wouldn't spam it after getting Flare.
3) You've introduced a penalty to Freeze -- a skill we use in end-game -- in order to advance another skill that will still largely get phased out during the leveling process, just slower. Congrats?

Blizzard IV in AoE? Useless. I'd be okay with situational usefulness, but outright traps?

Shurri, you know I love you, but "not having a use for a single-target skill in AoE" is a weird hill to die on for a job that literally has different DoT skills for single- and multi-target.

[Ferrinus]

Just for a moment I invite you to consider, that when all is said and done with your plan:
1) Blizzard 2 is still equally forgotten after we get Freeze. We only need one transition tool and Freeze already covers that, and we ideally won't spend enough time in UI to spam anything anyway.
2) Best case scenario, all you've accomplished for Fire 2 by endgame is having it replace Fire 3 as a transition tool in AoE scenarios, since we still wouldn't spam it after getting Flare.
3) You've introduced a penalty to Freeze -- a skill we use in end-game -- in order to advance another skill that will still largely get phased out during the leveling process, just slower. Congrats?

The problem is, you can't really have B2 become Freeze and F2 become Flare because the former's a strict upgrade while the latter isn't - F2 doesn't cost all your mana and take 4 seconds to cast. Also, that leaves the quirk in our AoE rotation where using F3 to swap to astral on 5+ targets is actually a dps loss. So, I think giving F2 F3-like functionality actually works really well - it lets you swap while maximizing the damage of both your cycle's flares and works as more conventional spammable AoE in earlier levels.
B2 ends up much more marginal (as does B1, which is like... a way to keep UI going if you have a single GCD left and want to add a teeny bit more damage? This is where making F1 and B1 both instant casts and getting rid of Scathe all together really appeals) but I'd prefer that to it vanishing all together.

If it was feasible, I'd love for Freeze to also do 260 potency to one target and 40% less to the rest, except it would end up replacing B3!

[Archwizard]

The problem is, you can't really have B2 become Freeze and F2 become Flare because the former's a strict upgrade while the latter isn't - F2 doesn't cost all your mana and take 4 seconds to cast.

That hardly matters if it's still an upgrade to PPS and overall PPM. You might have had a point if there was ever a time where you would have both and use both -- spamming F2 in AoE and ending in Flare for instance -- but as it stands Fire 2 is completely phased out before you even get Flare, so the effective upgrade is still viable.

Also, that leaves the quirk in our AoE rotation where using F3 to swap to astral on 5+ targets is actually a dps loss.

Define "actually a DPS loss", since a loss means there is something to compare to. Compared to just spamming Freeze and never getting Flare out? Compared to hitting Transpose and rebuilding before Flare?
Are we saying hitting Flare in ice phase and getting one more Flare in AF is more PPM than a quick Fire 3 and two Flares in AF thanks to IUH? Because if that's the case -- and ignoring that Transpose is still presently an option -- my suggestion to have Flare interact with Aspect Mastery to not consume IUH is still available, considering that that seems like an oversight that they don't already.

B2 ends up much more marginal (as does B1, which is like... a way to keep UI going if you have a single GCD left and want to add a teeny bit more damage? This is where making F1 and B1 both instant casts and getting rid of Scathe all together really appeals) but I'd prefer that to it vanishing all together.

If it was feasible, I'd love for Freeze to also do 260 potency to one target and 40% less to the rest, except it would end up replacing B3!

One other thing I failed to point out as a flaw with your design: We don't just go straight into using half-cast Freezes to transition until we get Aspect Mastery. Before that point we have to Transpose after Flare, which goes back to "you just gave Freeze a 4-second cast time in UI phase".

[Shurrikhan]

I'm mainly talking about max level here as all classes have skills that become less useful if not downright obsolete.

Name one other skill that becomes rotationally worthless without being outright upgraded (e.g. Straight Shot) or complemented (e.g. Kaiten as used on combo finishers)?

No one else just leaves rotational items there, in a far worse relative place than at level 50, as joke traps for players.

One other thing I failed to point out as a flaw with your design: We don't just go straight into using half-cast Freezes to transition until we get Aspect Mastery. Before that point we have to Transpose after Flare, which goes back to "you just gave Freeze a 4-second cast time in UI phase".

Also, this. Could we please stop designing solely around max level to the detriment of the leveling experience?

[Ferrinus]

That hardly matters if it's still an upgrade to PPS and overall PPM. You might have had a point if there was ever a time where you would have both and use both -- spamming F2 in AoE and ending in Flare for instance -- but as it stands Fire 2 is completely phased out before you even get Flare, so the effective upgrade is still viable.

But, it wouldn't be if its cast time and MP cost were reduced to F1's. In that case, F2 would be useful for AoE before level 68.

Define "actually a DPS loss", since a loss means there is something to compare to. Compared to just spamming Freeze and never getting Flare out? Compared to hitting Transpose and rebuilding before Flare?

Compared to using Flare to swap from Umbral to Astral. You know, the "cold flare" AoE rotation that's technically superior to using F3 when you've got 5+ targets? If F2 could work as, effectively, an AoE F3, it would have a place at level 68+.

One other thing I failed to point out as a flaw with your design: We don't just go straight into using half-cast Freezes to transition until we get Aspect Mastery. Before that point we have to Transpose after Flare, which goes back to "you just gave Freeze a 4-second cast time in UI phase".

You'd be able to use it to transition to Umbral from Astral after AoEing a bunch of targets from levels 35 to 49, or after doing a Flare -> Convert ->F2 between levels 50 and 67. I could see going farther and giving Freeze, specifically, a 0 base MP cost or something as a mirror to Flare's "all" MP cost, but even if nothing of the sort happens Freeze falling out of use for 17 levels is acceptable given that it still ends up with a place at level 68 and higher.

[Archwizard]

But, it wouldn't be if its cast time and MP cost were reduced to F1's. In that case, F2 would be useful for AoE before level 68.

Have you crunched the numbers on that or are you just crossing your fingers?

Compared to using Flare to swap from Umbral to Astral. You know, the "cold flare" AoE rotation that's technically superior to using F3 when you've got 5+ targets? If F2 could work as, effectively, an AoE F3, it would have a place at level 68+.

So you want to hamfist in an ability that's dead to the community for a technicality, in lieu of an option like, say, just patching Flare to actually be affected by Aspect Mastery so you still have Umbral Hearts after a Cold Flare (which I think we can agree is a massive oversight that it doesn't already)?

You'd be able to use it to transition to Umbral from Astral after AoEing a bunch of targets from levels 35 to 49, or after doing a Flare -> Convert ->F2 between levels 50 and 67. I could see going farther and giving Freeze, specifically, a 0 base MP cost or something as a mirror to Flare's "all" MP cost, but even if nothing of the sort happens Freeze falling out of use for 17 levels is acceptable given that it still ends up with a place at level 68 and higher.

Are you aware of the difference that that 17 levels makes? That's all of the post-ARR content, the entirety of Heavensward and most of Stormblood, for a first-time leveler that's nearly a month and even for someone with Armory bonus that could be weeks. Compare that to the gap from 35 to 50, which is like... A day? Three tops?
Not to mention how incredibly disjointed it is to get a spell you use for 14 levels, ignore for 17 and then recover for 12 more.