How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Reynhart]

I'm glad we can agree that damage is necessary for enmity, but it is also a primary function of the role simply because it is intended by the devs who designed the role that tanks deal damage, just as much as it is intended for dps to deal damage.

You're right, the devs designed the tank role so that it would do damage...its current damage. So, end of debate, "working as intended" ?

[J-Reyno]

You're right, the devs designed the tank role so that it would do damage...its current damage. So, end of debate, "working as intended" ?

The discussion was whether dealing damage is a primary element of tank gameplay. You argued that it isn't, which would be like my arguing that tanks didn't receive a lower damage increase than the other roles even though we all know that is true. I haven't made any such argument, however, and we've established that yours was wrong.

If you want to argue that damage SHOULDN'T be a focus of the role, that's a different story Similarly, I might argue that tanks should deal more damage, but whether or not it's necessary for the role to deal damage isn't up for discussion.

[Reynhart]

The discussion was whether dealing damage is a primary element of tank gameplay.

No, again, the discussion on this thread is that you feel tanks don't do enough damage compared to other roles. You just use enmity as a reason why you should do more damage because it would help you fulfill your primary focus, which is false because you don't need this additionnal enmity to tank.

So again, you want more damage for damage sake.

And if you use devs as a justification for how tanks are expected to do damage, it's obvious I will use devs to justify that tanks are expected to do the damage they currently do, since in both cases, that's how devs designed tanks.

[J-Reyno]

I will use devs to justify that tanks are expected to do the damage they currently do, since in both cases, that's how devs designed tanks.

And you're free to do that. I'm not arguing that tanks are not expected to deal their current damage. I'm arguing that I feel they should deal more. You argued that tanks are not expected to focus on damage, but they are.

There is a difference between arguing HOW things work and arguing how you FEEL things should work.

You argued the former, I've been arguing the latter.

I'd hope you could understand this before the discussion became tiresome, but... here we are.

[Reynhart]

You argued that tanks are not expected to focus on damage, but they are.

No, I argued that there's no justification for them to do more, since it wouldn't change anything on how they do their tanking. And that your focus as a player should simply to get as close a possible to the ceiling of your role and not compare it to what other roles do.

And also that to make tanks more engaging, it would be much more interesting to focus on actual tanking mechanics, by either making enmity something you had to actually manage or mitigation more involving.

[J-Reyno]

No, I argued that there's no justification for them to do more, since it wouldn't change anything on how they do their tanking.

You argued that there's no reason for tanks to optimize damage. You even suggested that spamming shield lob would be an effective replacement for optimizing damage to accomplish the tank's objectives, even though one of those objectives is effectively dealing damage around which content is balanced.

Your quotes below:

I'm not sure about the enmity modifier for Shield Lob/Tomahawk and such, but you could probably gain more "enmity" by spamming it than by doing a correct GCD rotation. But enmity not being an issue, I think it's more important to focus on the other primary objective of tanks, which is surviving, and it just so happens that surviving is almost completely unrelated to doing damage.

But, like I said, optimizing enmity is not technically the same as optimizing damage. And, frankly, this line was only to point out that enmity is barely something tanks have to focus on

You even called this "optimizing enmity" as a way to emphasize that there's no need to actually utilize the damage rotation. You were wrong that optimizing enmity would include spamming shield lob (this is not optimal by any stretch of the imagination) and you were wrong that tanks are not intended to focus on dealing damage as part of the role.

And just to make sure you understand that you did indeed dismiss damage as a primary focus of the role, let me offer a couple more quotes from yourself:

We were discussing primary focus. And since tanks have two focus, to keep monster on them and to survive, I simply made sure that enmity was a not non-issue to focus on the surviving part, which, again is almost completely unrelated to how much DPS you do.

So, I'll say it again, optimizing your damage has nothing to do with any primary focus of a tank, be it keeping the enemy on you or surviving attacks.

So let me say it again. Optimizing your damage IS a primary and intended focus of playing tank according to the very devs who design the roles and the content.

Now you can argue separately that tanks should not have more damage, and again, you're free to do that. It doesn't change that you were, are and will continue to be wrong about the above.

[Reynhart]

You argued that there's no reason for tanks to optimize damage.

No, I didn't. In fact, I specifically said :

The thing is that "optimizing DPS" has nothing to do with the actual damage numbers but rather how close you are to your full damage output. You're a better tank by doing 7k out of a 8k ceiling than by doing 8k out of a 12k ceiling.

when I joined this thread, and

One more time "as best as you can" shouldn't be compared to "as best as DPS can" but "as best as other tanks can". That's why I said that raw numbers don't matter much as ceiling within your role.

as a specific answer to you.

You're the one that started mixing enmity as a justification that tanks should do damage closer to DPS, which, again, wouldn't increase anything in your abiity to survive or keep enmity off your party members.

[Deceptus]

And you're free to do that. I'm not arguing that tanks are not expected to deal their current damage. I'm arguing that I feel they should deal more. You argued that tanks are not expected to focus on damage, but they are.

There is a difference between arguing HOW things work and arguing how you FEEL things should work.

You argued the former, I've been arguing the latter.

I'd hope you could understand this before the discussion became tiresome, but... here we are.

Any many would argue how you "feel" is meaningless when it comes to balance.

Take some time and do some tests, gather data, present it that way. Just saying "I feel this" doesn't get much support.

For example, you can get to lvl 80 and equip same ilvl gearsets on tanks and DPS and do some 500 potency attacks (or whatever) and compare the damage. Then you can make a judgement on Tank scaling and comment on that.