Tried to design Chemist

[Brightshadow]

Straight from google, source: https://wikidiff.com/alchemist/chemist

As nouns the difference between alchemist and chemist
is that alchemist is one who practices alchemy while chemist is a person who specializes in the science of chemistry, especially at a professional level.

there really shouldn't be a discussion if they are the same because they aren't; however their questline could have a connection, similar to how machinist was a newly created guild the alchemist guide could be the founders of the battle chemists in 6.0 after some type of discovery like perhaps garlean chemistry. I also think they should be channeled healers, alongside their mix gimmick of course.

[Eloah]

As nouns the difference between alchemist and chemist is that alchemist is one who practices alchemy while chemist is a person who specializes in the science of chemistry, especially at a professional level.

there really shouldn't be a discussion if they are the same because they aren't; however their questline could have a connection, similar to how machinist was a newly created guild the alchemist guide could be the founders of the battle chemists in 6.0 after some type of discovery like perhaps garlean chemistry. I also think they should be channeled healers, alongside their mix gimmick of course.

You are not incorrect, but the main reason for the name change is because, at least in English, the name Chemist is too similar to Alchemist. Which is why the third option Salve-maker, or other names are thrown into the mix. As for the job/class connection, it's not outside of the realm of possibility, but I doubt they would connect them the way they did Musketeer and Machinist.

[Archwizard]

That still wouldn't rule out a Garlean based healer revolving around science with a chemist-like approach. Given their lack of aether manipulation, the lore and aesthetic would be more related to science and technology, rather than magic and alchemy. But something like that can still take gameplay cues from chemist, but be a FFXIV variation.

Then I suppose this is where I point out that the devs initially intended to release a gun-toting Chemist back in Heavensward, but couldn't figure out how to balance it, which is why we ended up with AST as a buff-flinging healer (as they'd announced a healer already) and MCH as a gun-toting technologist (since they wanted to try a new weapon-type).

And? By lore, both Conjurers and Astrologians are half a step away from Geomancers. But I don't see Scholars working with potions mid-combat, nor hexes, nor blood-infusions, nor whatever else would be possible for any iteration of the above concept.

I mean, I could absolutely see Scholars throwing around hexes (the perfect intersection of their ol' debuff/plague focus, strategic impediments AND faerie magic), and a new caster DPS job to throw around GEO's offensive spells since WHM stepped off elements. Just sayin'.

And on the other hand, saying Chemist/Salve-maker would throw around blood-infusions is kind of a stretch, particularly if the suggestion is for a physician job who focuses on science/medicine to just... spill blood into their potions. Wildly unsanitary, particularly if they're not sure where that blood has been.
Not against a healer who uses blood-infusions -- I've suggested it before, even -- just not sure Chemist could swing it. Besides, if the lore is that Black Rose caused some people to change how they draw on aether, that would implicitly mean it would affect the player at all times, not just with the soul crystal slotted.

[Shurrikhan]

I mean, I could absolutely see Scholars throwing around hexes (the perfect intersection of their ol' debuff/plague focus, strategic impediments AND faerie magic), and a new caster DPS job to throw around GEO's offensive spells since WHM stepped off elements. Just sayin'.

And on the other hand, saying Chemist/Salve-maker would throw around blood-infusions is kind of a stretch, particularly if the suggestion is for a physician job who focuses on science/medicine to just... spill blood into their potions. Wildly unsanitary, particularly if they're not sure where that blood has been.
Not against a healer who uses blood-infusions -- I've suggested it before, even -- just not sure Chemist could swing it. Besides, if the lore is that Black Rose caused some people to change how they draw on aether, that would implicitly mean it would affect the player at all times, not just with the soul crystal slotted.

You're going to have to pick one here. I'm not the Chemist/Salve-maker advocate; I'm the one who said I'd rather see potion-use subsumed into an integral part of another job (ideally one that would form organically from existing plot points) than try to run such a scant concept as a job's basis and flesh it out arbitrarily from there. So a salve-maker wouldn't use blood infusions? Fair enough. I never said they (the vanilla class concept) should. My point was that there are chemist-derivatives (auger/empirist/plague doctor/etc.) that could make potion-use the center of their kit but could spice that up into some compelling cohesion sufficient to make a truly fleshed out job -- that is to say, with the addition of other means and styles of item usage that could run in a similarly ominous/pragmatic/tactical style.

You already know my stance on WHM abandoning its elements, so let's skip to SCH and hexes and the implication that anything and everything to do with plague would have to be the sole purview of SCH (despite their in-game lore including only one study into an ancient plague).

No doubt, Hexes fits their tactical style to some extent, in that the have situationally-best graphical and material complexities that brings about some desired result, but it seems almost the opposite of their aesthetic. Hexes are usually a symbol of the occult. Bone sigils? Dreamcatchers? Warding talismans? These smack of a sort of anti-academia.

Heck, just take the sample name, empirist (another name for a "quack" doctor outside the scholarly order, back in the era of leeching and treatment of the four humors), one who believes only what they see and have experimented for, placing little to no value in history, historical solutions or the workings of the world outside their region of work -- it's the antonym of a scholar.

In the scenario I proposed, the Black Rose-affected area would be incredibly distinct zone, which may largely follow altogether different rules of magic as aether is leeched from people and plants such that latent aether becomes simultaneously stifling and unusable (to most, at least). That's why I was drawn to the irony here. You'd have a new order of 'uneducated' or 'folk-remedy' doctors whose cures have actual, proven efficacy in the surrounding confusion, be that hexes (abjuration), learning how to avoid the semi-sentient miasma of the ever-thickening latent aether (augury), counter-infections, synthesis, adaptation, or whatever else. These seemingly occult and unproven items could actually be among the few things to work in that novel and chaotic zone. Thus, you'd have a potions-centric class that is an organic fit for the continuing plotlines, complete with a focal zone that'd be plenty fun in its own right. I'd sooner take that over trying to pass off "throws potions" as a complete and compelling concept or pushing anything and everything plague related to the 'scholardom' (despite their historical reluctance to have anything to do with major plague outbreaks).

[Saefinn]

Then I suppose this is where I point out that the devs initially intended to release a gun-toting Chemist back in Heavensward, but couldn't figure out how to balance it, which is why we ended up with AST as a buff-flinging healer (as they'd announced a healer already) and MCH as a gun-toting technologist (since they wanted to try a new weapon-type).

And the same reasoning was used for not giving us ANY healers since. But doesn't mean we can't ask for one. They've consistently struggled with healer balance, so I expect this is a line we will keep on getting when asking for anything we want. And I expect it is why we got a load of healer changes we hate... And they are still not balanced.
But fun > balance. Perhaps SE will one day accept that and worry less about fine tuning and accept a middle ground.

[Archwizard]

-snip-

Aight, so my honest perspective on this: I agree that potion use is, on its own, not substantial enough to form an entire job -- not to mention that we already have potions, and making a job based entirely out of instant healing is wildly imbalanced. I come into Chemist-based threads with a salt brick and a degree of cynicism, but as an old friend said, "I genuinely had an interest... provided s/he could [deliver]."
So, in that regard, we're on the same page.

Tangentially, I believe that Scholar is somewhat disorganized and disjointed, given that it combines many themes unevenly. It's ostensibly a tactician but this manifests largely in a singular debuff and one or two supportive skills; it's a field medic, but specializes in barriers; it's an academic healer, but primarily uses the summoning of faeries and angels to heal, and never expounds on how its magic works; it's a plague doctor, but largely only in its quests. As you said with your discussion of Academia and educated doctors, I believe that Scholar should be the healer that best exemplifies the use of magically-enhanced and -assisted medical practices, including anatomy, biology, and yes, even chemistry, while using those same studies of magic and medicine in addition to its tactical knowledge to apply pressure to foes and exploit their weaknesses. This would be in contrast to White Mage's role as a shamanistic or druidic healer (a semi-classical white witch, as it were) and Astrologian's as an oracle and manipulator of fate/time.
This is, of course, not really how the job presently manifests -- particularly due to the faerie being somewhat out of place to the theme, despite being seemingly the core of the job's design, in addition to removal of skills like Leeches and Miasma, and a lack of general discussion on what its magic actually is (though it uses skills themed after dark magic to attack) -- and while I would love to discuss that at length, that's a topic for another thread.
This puts me at two minds with regards to Scholar: First that its themes, in its present state, are nebulous, and until we know what it actually is meant to be aside from "faerie master" and how its magic works, nothing under "I heal people with science and/or sci-magic" can be written off as potential advancement, meaning a future healer should probably take a wide berth around that theme. Second, that its themes should be more clear cut so we can free up thematic space for another healer in that field, which would entail a substantial rework -- which is again, a big discussion for another thread.

So let's go back to your concept. Since you already know my stance on an occult healer (particularly one whose style involves hexes, drain effects, and augmenting its patients), I'll hold my own advocacy and approach this without agenda.
You're discussing a job that, by contrast to other suggestions in this thread, simultaneously would have no formalized concept of science or medicine and instead uses folk remedies bolstered by an unnatural ability obtained from victims of exposure to Black Rose... but also studies a plague nobody else understands, enough to be the prime authority on its applications and replicate its effects in a manner that its use isn't harmful to themselves (and even lacks the "reluctance" to weaponize it), and utilizes chemistry -- not just "eye of newt and toe of frog" brewery, but processes like "synthesis, adaptation, or whatever else"?
Doesn't that seem somewhat contradictory? I get that historical plague doctors didn't always know how the plagues worked or why certain treatments helped (which more often worked to their detriment than their favor, since they often failed to contain the spread or misattributed causes as a result), but such a mindset seems out of place in Eorzea upon critical examination.

And the same reasoning was used for not giving us ANY healers since.

... no? I literally just explained their response to "We can't figure out how to balance Chemist internally as a healer" was to introduce an alternative healer.

The fact they haven't introduced any healers since came later, and is due to separate balance considerations -- namely that the existing three are imbalanced against each other and they have concerns about tossing a fourth into the mix while this persists, in addition to lack of options in other roles like ranged and casters.
I mean c'mon, it's only been two expansions since the last healer, they release 2 per (Heavensward being, again, a unique case 'cuz their plans for just two got screwy) and there's 5 roles. Someone had to draw the short straw.

[Saefinn]

... no? I literally just explained their response to "We can't figure out how to balance Chemist internally as a healer" was to introduce an alternative healer.

The fact they haven't introduced any healers since came later, and is due to separate balance considerations -- namely that the existing three are imbalanced against each other and they have concerns about tossing a fourth into the mix while this persists, in addition to lack of options in other roles like ranged and casters.
I mean c'mon, it's only been two expansions since the last healer, they release 2 per (Heavensward being, again, a unique case 'cuz their plans for just two got screwy) and there's 5 roles. Someone had to draw the short straw.

They didn't add Chemist due to balance concerns, they said they didn't add a 4th healer because of balance concerns. Arguably that is the same reason in broad terms, just how balance is affected is different, first was because they couldn't balance it with the relationship with SCH and WHM and now its because they can't balance any of them and still haven't managed to do so. AST was designed with the relationship SCH and WHM had in 2.0, but even as early as HW that dynamic changed, and three haven't been well balanced. The most balanced healers have been is in ARR. How healers work together in relation to encounters is different to how it was in ARR, hence whenever I've suggested SCH changes I've tended to say "an evolution of what it was like to play in 2.0" rather than exactly what it was like in 2.0, because I realise the game has evolved since then.

So it would not necessarily be bad for them to revisit the idea, particularly if it is the kind of job people want, as chemist is one that keeps coming up. We aren't privy to the details of exactly why they couldnt get the balance to work when making HW or if it is something that would be more achievable now. There are multiple ways a chemist could be designed to fulfill that job Fantasy, the method they went for might have been where they struggled and worked better repurposed as a DPS as MCH. It doesn't necessarily mean the entire idea is ruled out either.

And honestly I think they'll continue to struggle with balance. But I see no harm in still making suggestions because who knows what they could make work. Times have also changed since HW. Personally, I'd be okay with them being a little off balance if it meant I was able to enjoy my role and that my role was not gimp for content. I argue that the fine tuning of balance really only affects the top percentile, again, as long as they're not gimp.

And really there's only 3 roles, just there's 3 different types of 1 of those roles. And I don't recall moaning that we didn't get a 4th healer this time around, this thread is a suggestion of a 4th healer and I gave a suggestion of a flavour of it. - shrugs-

[Saefinn]

Then I suppose this is where I point out that the devs initially intended to release a gun-toting Chemist back in Heavensward, but couldn't figure out how to balance it, which is why we ended up with AST as a buff-flinging healer (as they'd announced a healer already) and MCH as a gun-toting technologist (since they wanted to try a new weapon-type).

I should have read the interview before taking your word for granted, I read the section where they talked about AST. Yoshi P talked lore points, they had considered an item wielder like chemist, but found Astrologians were more widespread in Ishgard and felt it was appropriate, they also considered "could they hold a gun?" and then thought reading the stars was much more appropriate.

I saw another bit where they talked about balance, but they talked more about DPS roles and I didn't see AST or Chemist mentioned.

What's also interesting from that interview is that back then, their goal was to make it so you can do the content with your roles, rather than design new jobs to fix balance issues. I agree with the approach, though it feels they have since deviated from it at present.

Of course depending on the players some may say “Oh the Ninja is better or the Monk is better” but we made it so that you should be able to beat the content with the assigned roles. We never thought of adding these new jobs as a way to fix any sort of balance issue. With the introduction of a new job our goal is to provide a wider range of game play experience as well as a wider range of options you can use during combat. With the three new jobs we’re adding how they play differs a lot from the existing ten jobs we have and that’s how it’s intended to be made.

[Eloah]

info regarding SCH that would of made this post really long if I left it in as it was.

Okay, this ummm, semi confused me, since while some things aren't inaccurate, I think you might have some information misplaced.

First to start, SCH is a combat medic, but not how you think it is. Because of our modern interpretations of things, we tend to have a specific image in mind when thinking about certain subjects. This applies to the idea of a combat medic as well. If you were to think of one, you'd picture a doctor who is able to hold there own in a fight. But you are thinking in modern times, with modern tools. You have to remember that in the world of 14, technology isn't the same as it is for us. SCH is a combat medic in the current setting, since magic exists, a Chemist would be closer to a more modern interpretations. Admittedly though, since this is a game all healers have to be able to fight back as needed.

Another thing to remember is what their skills actually mean, many meanings get lost in other languages. To start with, almost everything they do is related to poisons, heals and attacks, as that is something done in the real world, injecting toxins into our bodies to either heal ourselves or cause injury to others. As an example Art of War in Japanese is Poisoning Art, Leeches was an old method of "purifying" the body, and Physick is an old term for a laxative. As for some other skills, Adloquium is Encouragement Plan(which is what Adlo means in Latin) Succor is morale lifting plan, the Galvanize effect is encouragement in Japanese, and Galvanize itself means both to shield and encourage. As well as the rest of their non-fairy based skills which deal with tactical measures, often being a translation of the original Japanese in an easier to understand/cool sounding formate; why say Far Seeing Plan when you can say Excogitation. Also, here is something I wrote a while back about the Broil line of spells

Yeah, Broil in Japanese is 気炎法(kienho), which is a combination of the kanji for spirit, flame, and method/act (like the act of doing something). But the first two combine to make the word 気炎(kien) which means High spirits/big talk. So the transtalion for 気炎法 could be read as either a literal transtalion Spirit Flame Art, or Flamboyant Speech, the later of which fits with SCH's motif, but the former sounds like an attack, so it's a play on words in Japanese. They were able to do this in English too by using the word embroil, which means bringing someone into conflict, usually through speech. They were even able to keep the "flame" aspect, which is probably why the animation looks fiery.

Now in English they just change the number, but in Japanese they change the first kanji, with Broil II being 魔炎法(maenho), and Broil III being 死炎法(shienho) with the kanji for spirit replaced with demon and death respectively. Unfortunately, 魔炎 and 死炎 aren't words on their own, but the series follows the same logic as most spells, were they change the ending (fire, fire, firaga, firaja), but in this case it's the first character that changes not the last. So it helps establish a theme, like your talks are getting more aggressive.

Funny thing, 炎(En) can also mean inflammation, and is used in several medical terms as well. That's why Japanese wordplay is so ammusing.

And yeah Ruin still fits but since it's more engrained in SMN I wish they'd fix it, it seems odd SCH having an Arcanist leftover.

I'm not saying that SCHs lore is as solid as it once was, especially as expansions come and go. But SCH for the most part, lore-wise, is still as it was, a post-modern combat medic. The main reason it's lore might be a bit confusing is because it's still tied to Arcanist and by proxy Summoner lore, so the overlap brings confusion.

Also to answer a question about the faerie. The faeries are tools, think medical tool. They are just a construct to aid in healing while on the battlefield while the SCH is creating tactics. There is nothing more than that. They don't have a big lore dump like Egis and such, they were just tools created to help in battle. Sentient tools, but still tools.

[Shurrikhan]

Tangentially...
This puts me at two minds with regards to Scholar...

Agreed on these points. I just feel that the distance indicated here allows plentiful berth for SCH's future advancements. It's not a matter of principle -- taking opportunities, where presented, for new jobs over conserving them for old jobs' advancements -- either; after all, I still think Conjurer would fully and compellingly eclipse Geomancer, or at least provide a base job for it, provided that the devs were ever willing to separate job-experience progression past their branching points. This is simply one where I feel the difference in techniques and alleged purpose are sufficient, and differences in lore, style, mood, and aesthetic are more than sufficient, to warrant something separate from Scholar. I'm all for improving upon Scholar and finally fleshing out its identity as more than just differently flavored approaches to a generic healer kit. I just don't think it needs so much space here that chemist-derivatives or the like must be shelved indefinitely until those additions are complete.

So let's go back to your concept. Since you already know my stance on an occult healer (particularly one whose style involves hexes, drain effects, and augmenting its patients), I'll hold my own advocacy and approach this without agenda.
You're discussing a job that, by contrast to other suggestions in this thread, simultaneously would have no formalized concept of science or medicine and instead uses folk remedies bolstered by an unnatural ability obtained from victims of exposure to Black Rose... but also studies a plague nobody else understands, enough to be the prime authority on its applications and replicate its effects in a manner that its use isn't harmful to themselves (and even lacks the "reluctance" to weaponize it), and utilizes chemistry -- not just "eye of newt and toe of frog" brewery, but processes like "synthesis, adaptation, or whatever else"?

Yes. The idea is that some may have some education in Sharlayan, Uldahn, or whatever other arts, but the explanations available with any degree of proximity from those studies of magic are insufficient for the new circumstances, while older, more occult solutions have, oddly enough, seen real value -- leading to an altogether bizarre environment for study. So, some will have no readily applicable formal education, and thus take new paths. Others, perhaps even the majority due to the more reputable scholars having wealth enough to flee in time, have no formal education, applicable or otherwise. You end up, therefore, with a new breed of doctor for the bleakest of times in the bleakest of places. Can an actual Scholar job come in and finally find means of not only circumventing or exploiting the effects of the plague but also how the plague works? Absolutely. And I'd love to see the job quests for that. Are there probably some actual Scholars still in the city, having blocked off the miasma completely? Probably, but such would limit their willingness to traverse much of that zone. Likewise, could a WHM start purifying and fortifying aether or making safehouses sourced in small locations by our XIV equivalent to the lifestream, and survive longer in the miasma due to their infused/innate surplus aether? Absolutely. And Astrologians? Where a truly ominous take on this 'plague doctor' or 'auger' or whatever job might go so far as to disembowel rival gangs to read for signs of the miasma's flow, what could Astrologians instead read from the twisted sky? Who knows? Astrologians would probably be outright new to the zone, seeing as they're unique to Sharlayan and Ishgard.

Doesn't that seem somewhat contradictory?

Honestly, no. I've not described them as idiots just by working outside the techniques of formal schooling. I described them merely as pragmatists, and sometimes opportunists, working in a very new, isolated part of world where everything has been turned on its head.