Why I look forward to Limited jobs

[Reynhart]

They could have had you learn 20 or so spells in the field, certainly it would be different than leveling up a job normally but it wouldn't prevent blue mage from performing and behaving like a blue would be expected.

The collection of spell has always been a staple of BLU, as is the fact that some of them are tied to very specific and challenging targets. You don't have that with job actions. A BLM not doing all its job quests is lazy, a BLU not clearing Titania Extreme to learn one spell is not. Another staple of BLU is its versatility, which would make it hard to balance if it was supposed to be used in the same context as other jobs. Giving a DPS spells like White Wind or Mighty Guard is a problem, as are spells like lvlX Doom.

To qualify as a BLU it literally just needs to use skills that monsters use that players generally can't, learnt through typically traditional means. If all of BLU's rotational skills were from the overworld/ normal mode instances with 100% learn rate upon seeing it once then it would still be BLU

Like I said above, versatility would still be a problem.

Then, I have a very simple solution to propose to you - make them normal jobs. BADA BING BADA BOOM! Problem solved! This limited job malarky needs to die in a fire.

I'm pretty sure people would have been far more pissed to have BLU as a pure caster DPS and denied most of its versatility. OR would feel betrayed if there was no challenge in Learning the spells and they would be simply given to you by simply leveling.

Gonna take some heat for this, but SMN, IMO, was a true limited job candidate if done right. SMN on its' own could summon Primals that are true to size, and the lore behind SMN, being a job whom utilizes some of the most powerful creatures.

Yes, but instead of that, they forced SMN to fit into the very restrictive holy trinity...and, of course, everybody welcomed the useless pets that look that pokemons, right ?

[Duelle]

The collection of spell has always been a staple of BLU, as is the fact that some of them are tied to very specific and challenging targets. You don't have that with job actions.

This depends on how you implement spell learning. A suggestion I wrote long ago involved splitting Blue Magic between lesser spells from monsters that could be learned in the overworld and greater spells that would be learned from job quests (the job quest would involve the monster you'd learn the spell from; i.e a quest where you learn Bad Breath would involve a Marlboro). That said,

A BLM not doing all its job quests is lazy, a BLU not clearing Titania Extreme to learn one spell is not.

The blame for that can be placed on the devs, as they're the ones that decided BLU can learn abilities from primals. It's spectacle that creates an unnecessary hurdle.

Another staple of BLU is its versatility, which would make it hard to balance if it was supposed to be used in the same context as other jobs. Giving a DPS spells like White Wind or Mighty Guard is a problem, as are spells like lvlX Doom.

Looking at the spell lists for FFV, FFVI, FFVII, and FFIX, I wouldn't call BLU versatile. What I would call it is a mage with decent utility ranging from status ailments, some buffs and a singular heal (not counting Strago's access to Transfusion) but focuses on dealing damage. Depending on which game, damage types the other party members don't have access to.

There's nothing that says BLU absolutely has to have LvX Death, Self Destruct (as meme-worthy as that spell is), and a full-effect Bad Breath in order to be considered a proper Blue Mage. The more "unique" spells that have gimmicks (like the ones that involve your level vs the mob's level, random percentages and items in your inventory) aren't mandatory, either.

I'm pretty sure people would have been far more pissed to have BLU as a pure caster DPS and denied most of its versatility. OR would feel betrayed if there was no challenge in Learning the spells and they would be simply given to you by simply leveling.

You're limiting yourself to the system for the other jobs instead of looking beyond that. I mean hell, if I had been asked to implement BLU, the first thing to do would be implementing a unique system for learning abilities, then set up the ability spread for duties, then expand that for content like the Masqued Carnivale so that BLU would be able to run dungeons and raids with a balanced (if limited) kit, and have a million spells at their disposal for the Masqued Carnivale. Best of all is that it'd be easy to explain away by saying "this job stone gives you access to a limited number of abilities out in dungeons, but here at the carnivale we have these beacons that enhance your job stone so you can use a lot more spells".

[Reynhart]

Looking at the spell lists for FFV, FFVI, FFVII, and FFIX, I wouldn't call BLU versatile. What I would call it is a mage with decent utility ranging from status ailments, some buffs and a singular heal (not counting Strago's access to Transfusion) but focuses on dealing damage.

Yeah sure, having Mighty Guard as the best buff ever and White Wind as a the best healing skill, on top of having spells that can one-shot bosses of the proper level is only "decent".

There's nothing that says BLU absolutely has to have LvX Death, Self Destruct (as meme-worthy as that spell is), and a full-effect Bad Breath in order to be considered a proper Blue Mage.

Well, technically, there's nothing that says BLM absolutely have to have Fire, Thunder and Blizzard, right ?

The more "unique" spells that have gimmicks (like the ones that involve your level vs the mob's level, random percentages and items in your inventory) aren't mandatory, either.

Gimmicks are part of job's identity. If you don't care about that, just dye your Red Mage gear Blue, and you'll be a Blue Mage.

so that BLU would be able to run dungeons and raids with a balanced (if limited) kit, and have a million spells at their disposal for the Masqued Carnivale.

Ok, so, how is that different from what I've suggested pages ago with "limited" feature, and wouldn't still have its tsunami of complaints about how BLU wouldn't be able to do dungeons at its full potential ?

[Shougun]

The collection of spell has always been a staple of BLU, as is the fact that some of them are tied to very specific and challenging targets. You don't have that with job actions. A BLM not doing all its job quests is lazy, a BLU not clearing Titania Extreme to learn one spell is not. Another staple of BLU is its versatility, which would make it hard to balance if it was supposed to be used in the same context as other jobs. Giving a DPS spells like White Wind or Mighty Guard is a problem, as are spells like lvlX Doom.

Hi . I remember talking about some of this with you before so I'll try not to rehash too many old ideas but I'm also happy to because I never felt like our persons were under attack so /wave lol.

For the Titania extreme example I'd say that it would indeed require clever planning of when and where abilities are obtained, but also that I don't think it needs to use extreme primals to get it done. Like for the most part you can use hard mode primals as well, which is far more farmable. Also on a personal aside note I don't really love that blue mage can learn primal spells since I think that should be what summoner is doing (bane be gone, cast eruption instead, etc, etc), but that's just a personal feeling.

For a loose example we could have every 10 levels the blue mage has a page in their blue mage book (for DF at least, not discussing the advanced job concept at the moment). Blue Mage levels via their book.

So you might think of a level 25 dungeon, and because I want to be lazy and make an easy example lets talk about esuna lol (don't think about what our jobs currently are, this is a new healer job). This dungeon requires esuna in order to go smoothly. You earn it at level 24 by doing a job quest (something SE has moved away from because they dont want players running around without their kit lol). I join and I'm level capped to 26 but still don't have esuna, annoying right? I think everyone agrees.

So in this blue mage book example, esuna-b is their level 24 skill. They're currently level 22. They go out to the monster that gives it. They learn it. They're now level 24. They couldn't join a dungeon without it and the DF doesn't even need to check their spell book because it's a level issue. We could make that concept granular even like how our hunting logs worked (if people recall that log that just sort of collects dust at the moment lol)- in order to complete your log you need x y z tasks. So to reach level 25 could be spell "x y z", this allowing blue mage some freedom in the order they learn spells in that bracket but still restricting them into a space that meets DF's expectations. Of course if you join a level 23 dungeon people shouldn't expect you have your level 24 spells, and this is already true- sometimes you gain a level in a dungeon and gain a new spell in said dungeon and I think that's fine and not fair to have issue with (not saying you did, just saying "some" missing skills depending on why is okay).

Under the advanced job concept, where blue mage has a huge book of spells, and some of the spells are gilded (surrounded by a gold marker) to notate those are DF spells. Where Blue Mage can become unchained for any non-current content or chained for current. I think it's a bit easier even as we could keep the same fast open world leveling and just tell blue mages "if you want to join the content you have to have the spells of that dungeon's level and lower". So it just becomes a sort of shopping list. Of course if one of the spells is like "Bahamut Ultimate" you'd have a problem.. but I'd say.. don't do that lol. Also these gilded spells could have adjusted learning rates (start much higher). Because blue mage would level much faster I think the learning would offset that and make it "fairly" fair that blue mage levels the fastest.

Finally on weird spells and versatility I agree with Duelle that it's not necessarily that they're able to do all roles well or be a jack of all trades.. things like that and it's more just they've access to abnormal ideas. I think for many of these abnormal spells you can make them work in spirit even if they're not perfect clones. Say for example bad breath will really mess up trash packs for a short period of time but the main feature of bad breath, the feature that exists into boss fights even, is the poison and defense down debuff (like a less powerful trick attack debuff). Novelty in that blue mage could pause an entire pack for a few seconds, but function for when the novelty must fail (bosses, could even have the bosses just ignore all the status afflictions but the DoT / def down, so it's easier to balance than "oh I forgot to make that boss immune to paralyze.... now blue mages are abusing it"). For death you could have something incredible like on a /huge/ cooldown you can outright kill one trash monster, perhaps for a little play and chance it either kills them outright or deals like 75% hp. Once cast death turns to something like mortal ray or death ray, a high powered damaging spell that is combined in some way in the rotation of spells. Each time you cast death ray it lowers death's cooldown. Death automatically changes to death ray when you enter boss rooms (meaning there is no way to cast it on a boss).

I do feel you're presenting issues SE would have to thoughtfully consider, I just don't agree they're issues that cannot be solved or at least cannot be presented in some fascinating way without having to kill the DF portion of blue mage. Like I think it'd be interesting if blue mage leveled fast but had to go get their own spells, or if they unlocked new pages of the book as they leveled, or whatever other idea that fits in there but still allows DF. Something like how I was fine I had to go pilgrimage for primals in FFXI as it was flavor to the job, or in WoW where you used to have to take care of your pet and pet choice mattered more (it's a bit annoying some days but I think the pet feeding mechanic was awesome... loved that I had to pick up fishing and sometimes just stop what I'm doing and relax a bit to make my pet happy again). It's why I guess I was thinking advanced jobs could be fun, the idea they bring something different to the table we're all used to sitting at- they require you to do something a bit abnormal.. that they level different or require a different feedback loop.. just changes on some core principles that you don't normally expect to change- I think that's kind of exciting. I don't love limited jobs though because I think there is an incredible potential for disappointment (like people who wanted to main blue mage in DF, like I did). I'll admit there can be some fun concepts still under limited but I still think the potential for disappointment is grand (like I'd probably enjoy blue mage more if it was a solo god, as we talked about before).

[Reynhart]

Under the advanced job concept, where blue mage has a huge book of spells, and some of the spells are gilded (surrounded by a gold marker) to notate those are DF spells.

That's roughly what I imagined with the concept of "limited" feature. The issue with BLU, be it its unpredicatability, and its balance. Two things that are only an issue in random group. So, thos gilded spells would indeed be the only ones you would have in PUG, and would probably be learned via job quests of through an easy-non-random process.

But, if you build a premade, you check "unchain" or "limited" in the DF menu, and suddenly, you have access to everything. And you could do the same for every job, giving them more depth that won't be an issue since you have time to discuss the setup before going into duties.

A very small minority of people, relative to how pretty much everyone hates this limited job bullshit.

Since you don't have the actual numbers, that's an assumption based on a the vocal part of the playerbase, which is always a minority.

The actual (incredibly small) amount of people who care about the class fantasy of BLU 'collecting' spells from monsters that couldn't be sated by class quests really shouldn't really have been listened to.

Yes, they should, because at the end of an expansion, it's more interesting to offer something new to do, instead of another job to farm the things you already farm for months. You just have to realize that, right now, BLU is not a job, it's a content.

[Jybril]

Yes, they should, because at the end of an expansion, it's more interesting to offer something new to do, instead of another job to farm the things you already farm for months. You just have to realize that, right now, BLU is not a job, it's a content.

Meanwhile, literally no one asked BLU to be this sort of content.
They asked for it to be a job like any other like loads thought it would be.
At least we could still continue to play BLU for the entirety of the game if it
was a normal job. Not play for a few days to a week and never again until
it's next update.

because your impatient and what judge what has not be finish or has been buff or nerf you and you want it to be what you want blue mage to be the picture fit in to the trinity. well guess what it doesn't if how they dealt with summoner is any thing to go by they never change blue mage you stuck with it as is you make 100 thread demand them to change or get anger at me for like it as is and like limited jobs but the devs won't change it. in fact you tried rally the community since most people think the way my fc mate think that forum are full troll they won't care. through I seen them as place give helpful feed back but for people like me the dozen of people who whine and throw fit of had they don't like the job and want to be just as they picture it to be because it new it hasn't been done before it isn't like any of jobs that ffxiv has done before.

This isn't want the player base wanted so no ones going to care.
People have made posts on how to make BLU like a normal job and suggestions.
BLU is a joke. Just because we don't agree with you doesn't mean we're trolls.
Like dang, let people have an opinion on a job they wanted so badly that turned to crap.
With that, I'm done replying to you since how you're acting.

[Videra]

That's roughly what I imagined with the concept of "limited" feature. The issue with BLU, be it its unpredicatability, and its balance. Two things that are only an issue in random group. So, thos gilded spells would indeed be the only ones you would have in PUG, and would probably be learned via job quests of through an easy-non-random process.

But, if you build a premade, you check "unchain" or "limited" in the DF menu, and suddenly, you have access to everything. And you could do the same for every job, giving them more depth that won't be an issue since you have time to discuss the setup before going into duties.

Since you don't have the actual numbers, that's an assumption based on a the vocal part of the playerbase, which is always a minority.

Yes, they should, because at the end of an expansion, it's more interesting to offer something new to do, instead of another job to farm the things you already farm for months. You just have to realize that, right now, BLU is not a job, it's a content.

So you're just going to lay down and accept half-baked garbage content that is, being generous, dead within a week. You are arguing in favour of content that nobody wanted, could have been anything else, and wastes a job that people genuinely wanted. Right, you're just a troll. Got it.

[Auryan]

So you're just going to lay down and accept half-baked garbage content that is, being generous, dead within a week. You are arguing in favour of content that nobody wanted, could have been anything else, and wastes a job that people genuinely wanted. Right, you're just a troll. Got it.

Talk about a childish overreaction over something harmless and matter of fact. We get it, you loathe BLU and the people who like it, apparently. That hatred doesn't equal to your opinion being the dominant one and you playing representative of "the base" isn't going to make it true either. That doesn't make him a troll for calling you out on falsely assuming that you're in the right, though it does lessen you.

If everything were determined by popular opinion, we'd only be getting dungeons, 24 mans and savage into perpetuity until everybody gets bored and quits. Glad we don't. XIV could stand to get more side content that doesn't always have to do with tomes, ilvl or raids.

[Videra]

Talk about a childish overreaction over something harmless and matter of fact. We get it, you loathe BLU and the people who like it, apparently. That hatred doesn't equal to your opinion being the dominant one and you playing representative of "the base" isn't going to make it true either. That doesn't make him a troll for calling you out on falsely assuming that you're in the right, though it does lessen you.

If everything were determined by popular opinion, we'd only be getting dungeons, 24 mans and savage into perpetuity until everybody gets bored and quits. Glad we don't. XIV could stand to get more side content that doesn't always have to do with tomes, ilvl or raids.

I do not loathe people who like BLU, they can enjoy it however much they want. I personally don't, what I loathe is seeing people try to defend it. If you like something that's bad, then admit that it's bad. And guess what? I'm okay with side content, I want more - but what I want is for side content to not be dead on arrival.

[Auryan]

I do not loathe people who like BLU, they can enjoy it however much they want. I personally don't, what I loathe is seeing people try to defend it. If you like something that's bad, then admit that it's bad. And guess what? I'm okay with side content, I want more - but what I want is for side content to not be dead on arrival.

Right, sure. You're just oozing compassion and understanding. You can convince yourself and people that share your disgust, but not others.

Like all side content, you don't have to any of them, you know. It's not like the GMs are going around and harassing people to pick up crafting. You're free to pick and choose whatever you want to do, or not do. Limited jobs may not be your thing, much like DoH/DoL isn't for a lot of people. And that's perfectly fine. Freedom of choice. Ain't that a kick?