Why I look forward to Limited jobs

[MonsutaMan]

I feel like RUN, PUP, BST are limited job candidates, because they may have no creative purpose for such jobs. Limited jobs to them may be "We do not know what to do with this one, lets just make it function independently so don't have to balance it."

Gonna take some heat for this, but SMN, IMO, was a true limited job candidate if done right. SMN on its' own could summon Primals that are true to size, and the lore behind SMN, being a job whom utilizes some of the most powerful creatures.

Ironically, I feel like it may have been worst as a limited job lol.

[Shougun]

I feel like RUN, PUP, BST are limited job candidates, because they may have no creative purpose for such jobs. Limited jobs to them may be "We do not know what to do with this one, lets just make it function independently so don't have to balance it."

Gonna take some heat for this, but SMN, IMO, was a true limited job candidate if done right. SMN on its' own could summon Primals that are true to size, and the lore behind SMN, being a job whom utilizes some of the most powerful creatures.

Ironically, I feel like it may have been worst as a limited job lol.

Interesting fun fact is way way way back when there was talk of players being able to capture primals and summon them for great effect, like in the open world too. The full power primal.

I imagine that was part of their resistance to giving SMN a visually representative primal summoning (not suggesting 1:1, but more visually similar like Demi are), I think Yoshida was aiming to make primals something special. Which isn't an evil idea, and the whole huge summons the the battlefield thing is cool (I believe even mentioning some PvP events with this concept), but in the end I think restricting summoner so much so whether it was because of that or not in and of itself had inherently conflicted with the imagery of summoner and so making it feel less of a summoner by accident. I think the idea would have worked better if Summoner the job was never introduced, like summons worked a bit like FF7 or other item/non-job based variants (FFXV)- could have even been our limit breaks we unlock or something (picture calling Ramuh down like in FFXV as your limit break ). That doesn't really fit now though since we have SMN as a job lol, I think it'd be a big bummer if your warrior in your group summoned a better ifrit than you XD.

Personally I don't think SMN needs to be limited to be grand (and I feel Demi are doing great at show casing that). I suppose for a long time I felt they missed the mark for SMN saying stuff like "the only consistent thing about summoner is it's the most grand magic of mythical beings, some with control some as one shot spells but always grand-- these egi cannot be it.. this isn't summoner. This is like black mage without explosions, you can't.", but happily we now have Demi and with each expansion going more primal, big, and bold. So I think it's fine now or at least saying it's on a much brighter path (thematically), though I do casually wonder how awesome summoner could have been if they started the whole job from the start with that in mind "summons *hand wave* beautiful spells and mythical entities, huge egos, jealous black mages, say goodbye to our art budget, *fist pump*. FFXIV HW- please look forward to Summoner!" lol.

[Reynhart]

They could have had you learn 20 or so spells in the field, certainly it would be different than leveling up a job normally but it wouldn't prevent blue mage from performing and behaving like a blue would be expected.

The collection of spell has always been a staple of BLU, as is the fact that some of them are tied to very specific and challenging targets. You don't have that with job actions. A BLM not doing all its job quests is lazy, a BLU not clearing Titania Extreme to learn one spell is not. Another staple of BLU is its versatility, which would make it hard to balance if it was supposed to be used in the same context as other jobs. Giving a DPS spells like White Wind or Mighty Guard is a problem, as are spells like lvlX Doom.

To qualify as a BLU it literally just needs to use skills that monsters use that players generally can't, learnt through typically traditional means. If all of BLU's rotational skills were from the overworld/ normal mode instances with 100% learn rate upon seeing it once then it would still be BLU

Like I said above, versatility would still be a problem.

Then, I have a very simple solution to propose to you - make them normal jobs. BADA BING BADA BOOM! Problem solved! This limited job malarky needs to die in a fire.

I'm pretty sure people would have been far more pissed to have BLU as a pure caster DPS and denied most of its versatility. OR would feel betrayed if there was no challenge in Learning the spells and they would be simply given to you by simply leveling.

Gonna take some heat for this, but SMN, IMO, was a true limited job candidate if done right. SMN on its' own could summon Primals that are true to size, and the lore behind SMN, being a job whom utilizes some of the most powerful creatures.

Yes, but instead of that, they forced SMN to fit into the very restrictive holy trinity...and, of course, everybody welcomed the useless pets that look that pokemons, right ?

[Duelle]

The collection of spell has always been a staple of BLU, as is the fact that some of them are tied to very specific and challenging targets. You don't have that with job actions.

This depends on how you implement spell learning. A suggestion I wrote long ago involved splitting Blue Magic between lesser spells from monsters that could be learned in the overworld and greater spells that would be learned from job quests (the job quest would involve the monster you'd learn the spell from; i.e a quest where you learn Bad Breath would involve a Marlboro). That said,

A BLM not doing all its job quests is lazy, a BLU not clearing Titania Extreme to learn one spell is not.

The blame for that can be placed on the devs, as they're the ones that decided BLU can learn abilities from primals. It's spectacle that creates an unnecessary hurdle.

Another staple of BLU is its versatility, which would make it hard to balance if it was supposed to be used in the same context as other jobs. Giving a DPS spells like White Wind or Mighty Guard is a problem, as are spells like lvlX Doom.

Looking at the spell lists for FFV, FFVI, FFVII, and FFIX, I wouldn't call BLU versatile. What I would call it is a mage with decent utility ranging from status ailments, some buffs and a singular heal (not counting Strago's access to Transfusion) but focuses on dealing damage. Depending on which game, damage types the other party members don't have access to.

There's nothing that says BLU absolutely has to have LvX Death, Self Destruct (as meme-worthy as that spell is), and a full-effect Bad Breath in order to be considered a proper Blue Mage. The more "unique" spells that have gimmicks (like the ones that involve your level vs the mob's level, random percentages and items in your inventory) aren't mandatory, either.

I'm pretty sure people would have been far more pissed to have BLU as a pure caster DPS and denied most of its versatility. OR would feel betrayed if there was no challenge in Learning the spells and they would be simply given to you by simply leveling.

You're limiting yourself to the system for the other jobs instead of looking beyond that. I mean hell, if I had been asked to implement BLU, the first thing to do would be implementing a unique system for learning abilities, then set up the ability spread for duties, then expand that for content like the Masqued Carnivale so that BLU would be able to run dungeons and raids with a balanced (if limited) kit, and have a million spells at their disposal for the Masqued Carnivale. Best of all is that it'd be easy to explain away by saying "this job stone gives you access to a limited number of abilities out in dungeons, but here at the carnivale we have these beacons that enhance your job stone so you can use a lot more spells".

[Savagelf]

to be honest I blame not the Dev but human behavior. look here the issue you all aren't used to concept of limit jobs as yet you keep scream to make them more like the rest Jobs this an example of human behavior in practice when the devs introduce something never done you demand it be remove and change because your not used to have a job that isn't linked to the holy trinity, I am the first to admit I would love to see summoner work on more if you look how post I made with suggest how do the summoner how thing I suggest for summoner to fix it you see I love summoner and pet jobs. I believe that when SE introduce more job players will get used to it will stop player for demand they problem not. I been one suggest summoning like see Carbruncle like step stone where you have him out all at time but he respent each summon I been one suggest add Shiva and Ramuh I like Carbruncle but I like see summoner more like ffviii or ffxi. I like see bahumat more as the third tear in the summon I suggest ideal like high summon I suggest Diamond Carbruncle and Amystie Carbruncle

I been suggest add companion like dragonling and update the chocobo companion system

I want beast master to be a job like rest but am will accept it like Blue mage because I realize that job like blue mage and bst require more even Yoshi has said this.

I want a tanking mage jobs because it has never been done before I orginal suggest make blue mage a tank mage job

[hynaku]

Easy limit job if SE wanted to do mimic only has one skill to use.

[Reynhart]

Looking at the spell lists for FFV, FFVI, FFVII, and FFIX, I wouldn't call BLU versatile. What I would call it is a mage with decent utility ranging from status ailments, some buffs and a singular heal (not counting Strago's access to Transfusion) but focuses on dealing damage.

Yeah sure, having Mighty Guard as the best buff ever and White Wind as a the best healing skill, on top of having spells that can one-shot bosses of the proper level is only "decent".

There's nothing that says BLU absolutely has to have LvX Death, Self Destruct (as meme-worthy as that spell is), and a full-effect Bad Breath in order to be considered a proper Blue Mage.

Well, technically, there's nothing that says BLM absolutely have to have Fire, Thunder and Blizzard, right ?

The more "unique" spells that have gimmicks (like the ones that involve your level vs the mob's level, random percentages and items in your inventory) aren't mandatory, either.

Gimmicks are part of job's identity. If you don't care about that, just dye your Red Mage gear Blue, and you'll be a Blue Mage.

so that BLU would be able to run dungeons and raids with a balanced (if limited) kit, and have a million spells at their disposal for the Masqued Carnivale.

Ok, so, how is that different from what I've suggested pages ago with "limited" feature, and wouldn't still have its tsunami of complaints about how BLU wouldn't be able to do dungeons at its full potential ?

[Jybril]

to be honest I blame not the Dev but human behavior. look here the issue you all aren't used to concept of limit jobs as yet you keep scream to make them more like the rest Jobs this an example of human behavior in practice when the devs introduce something never done you demand it be remove and change because your not used to have a job that isn't linked to the holy trinity

Yes, they introduced a new thing in the game, and it has failed. I mean it's great you like it
but I am actually seeing you as the only person who really likes how it's handled, from here and other sources.

It shouldn't be done again. BLU has been a team-player in every FF game
and making it this stupid solo thing isn't fun. Not only that it's not even a real solo job
as you need other jobs to help you get some of the boss skills...It's makes no sense.

BST would be the same thing.
You'll get to capture x amount of monsters, with a annoying tedium like BLU and it's abysmal steal rate
(Even Zidane from FF9 has a better steal rate than this crap...Danged Fairy Flute man...)
and then never touch the job again until it's next update. 6 months to a year to an expansion lol.

They need a better vision than this and if it's too late, I just hope no other job comes to face this nonsense.

[Savagelf]

Has really fail or has your concept of it failed to understand it yet or more to be correct have you fail to adept to it. if it failed they won't be add more level to it would there. limit jobs are Niche jobs for those who enjoy blue mage as was in it concept not for players who want it to be part of the trinity.

like many on form have not give it a chance to adept many on the forum demand it to adept to they desire of the trinity machinac not allow it grown into it own. I seen thread with 150 page demand they change blue mage never complain that I haven't done on this character. through I am give it a chance to grown and accept that blue mage will be a niche jobs as will other jobs and wait to see blue mage be able grown. I also understand this I just ask people give limit jobs to come into they own before count it out as failure. I even have argue that blue mage is a hardcore jobs.



I would chalk limit jobs off as failure after all 3 jobs are release so one look how they introduce and how the devs use them I would make suggest about the lmilt jobs on improve it but not tried force change it they games

[Shougun]

The collection of spell has always been a staple of BLU, as is the fact that some of them are tied to very specific and challenging targets. You don't have that with job actions. A BLM not doing all its job quests is lazy, a BLU not clearing Titania Extreme to learn one spell is not. Another staple of BLU is its versatility, which would make it hard to balance if it was supposed to be used in the same context as other jobs. Giving a DPS spells like White Wind or Mighty Guard is a problem, as are spells like lvlX Doom.

Hi . I remember talking about some of this with you before so I'll try not to rehash too many old ideas but I'm also happy to because I never felt like our persons were under attack so /wave lol.

For the Titania extreme example I'd say that it would indeed require clever planning of when and where abilities are obtained, but also that I don't think it needs to use extreme primals to get it done. Like for the most part you can use hard mode primals as well, which is far more farmable. Also on a personal aside note I don't really love that blue mage can learn primal spells since I think that should be what summoner is doing (bane be gone, cast eruption instead, etc, etc), but that's just a personal feeling.

For a loose example we could have every 10 levels the blue mage has a page in their blue mage book (for DF at least, not discussing the advanced job concept at the moment). Blue Mage levels via their book.

So you might think of a level 25 dungeon, and because I want to be lazy and make an easy example lets talk about esuna lol (don't think about what our jobs currently are, this is a new healer job). This dungeon requires esuna in order to go smoothly. You earn it at level 24 by doing a job quest (something SE has moved away from because they dont want players running around without their kit lol). I join and I'm level capped to 26 but still don't have esuna, annoying right? I think everyone agrees.

So in this blue mage book example, esuna-b is their level 24 skill. They're currently level 22. They go out to the monster that gives it. They learn it. They're now level 24. They couldn't join a dungeon without it and the DF doesn't even need to check their spell book because it's a level issue. We could make that concept granular even like how our hunting logs worked (if people recall that log that just sort of collects dust at the moment lol)- in order to complete your log you need x y z tasks. So to reach level 25 could be spell "x y z", this allowing blue mage some freedom in the order they learn spells in that bracket but still restricting them into a space that meets DF's expectations. Of course if you join a level 23 dungeon people shouldn't expect you have your level 24 spells, and this is already true- sometimes you gain a level in a dungeon and gain a new spell in said dungeon and I think that's fine and not fair to have issue with (not saying you did, just saying "some" missing skills depending on why is okay).

Under the advanced job concept, where blue mage has a huge book of spells, and some of the spells are gilded (surrounded by a gold marker) to notate those are DF spells. Where Blue Mage can become unchained for any non-current content or chained for current. I think it's a bit easier even as we could keep the same fast open world leveling and just tell blue mages "if you want to join the content you have to have the spells of that dungeon's level and lower". So it just becomes a sort of shopping list. Of course if one of the spells is like "Bahamut Ultimate" you'd have a problem.. but I'd say.. don't do that lol. Also these gilded spells could have adjusted learning rates (start much higher). Because blue mage would level much faster I think the learning would offset that and make it "fairly" fair that blue mage levels the fastest.

Finally on weird spells and versatility I agree with Duelle that it's not necessarily that they're able to do all roles well or be a jack of all trades.. things like that and it's more just they've access to abnormal ideas. I think for many of these abnormal spells you can make them work in spirit even if they're not perfect clones. Say for example bad breath will really mess up trash packs for a short period of time but the main feature of bad breath, the feature that exists into boss fights even, is the poison and defense down debuff (like a less powerful trick attack debuff). Novelty in that blue mage could pause an entire pack for a few seconds, but function for when the novelty must fail (bosses, could even have the bosses just ignore all the status afflictions but the DoT / def down, so it's easier to balance than "oh I forgot to make that boss immune to paralyze.... now blue mages are abusing it"). For death you could have something incredible like on a /huge/ cooldown you can outright kill one trash monster, perhaps for a little play and chance it either kills them outright or deals like 75% hp. Once cast death turns to something like mortal ray or death ray, a high powered damaging spell that is combined in some way in the rotation of spells. Each time you cast death ray it lowers death's cooldown. Death automatically changes to death ray when you enter boss rooms (meaning there is no way to cast it on a boss).

I do feel you're presenting issues SE would have to thoughtfully consider, I just don't agree they're issues that cannot be solved or at least cannot be presented in some fascinating way without having to kill the DF portion of blue mage. Like I think it'd be interesting if blue mage leveled fast but had to go get their own spells, or if they unlocked new pages of the book as they leveled, or whatever other idea that fits in there but still allows DF. Something like how I was fine I had to go pilgrimage for primals in FFXI as it was flavor to the job, or in WoW where you used to have to take care of your pet and pet choice mattered more (it's a bit annoying some days but I think the pet feeding mechanic was awesome... loved that I had to pick up fishing and sometimes just stop what I'm doing and relax a bit to make my pet happy again). It's why I guess I was thinking advanced jobs could be fun, the idea they bring something different to the table we're all used to sitting at- they require you to do something a bit abnormal.. that they level different or require a different feedback loop.. just changes on some core principles that you don't normally expect to change- I think that's kind of exciting. I don't love limited jobs though because I think there is an incredible potential for disappointment (like people who wanted to main blue mage in DF, like I did). I'll admit there can be some fun concepts still under limited but I still think the potential for disappointment is grand (like I'd probably enjoy blue mage more if it was a solo god, as we talked about before).