Reasonable buff to war

[whiskeybravo]

I would rather have a more versitle tank that can do both MT and OTing somewhat well. I want to see WAR get buffs to its utility. You want to thrive on self healing? Cool, remove the 50% reduction on the other target for start and split Flash and Raw so when you use one the other doesn't go on cooldown. Buff up Shake it off a bit more if you invest into it for a better shield. Maybe increase the duration of Holmgang to 7.

You do realize that Nascent is capable of 25k+ heal on target per IC? My max IC is nearly 65k in damage (minimum around 48k).. That's a huge amount of healing on both targets for a measly 25 sec CD. The problem is the difficulty in using it effectively, but to separate it's CD from Raw would make it even more powerful as a solo mitigation skill.

The best solution would actually be to knock GNB's damage down a peg, since it offers such "great" utility. But that's unlikely to happen anytime soon since it's this expansions shiny new toy.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Just so people are aware, the DPS gap between WAR and GNB is anywhere between ~2-5% depends on whether you're looking at rDPS vs aDPS. There's also fight-by-fight variance to consider, as well as the percentile bracket, but they're not nearly as relevant as rDPS vs aDPS. It's all well and good to look at rDPS when you're doing comparisons within a job, for the most part, but it doesn't give you the full picture when comparing different jobs.

Also, regarding E4S and Holmgang, while it is good to use Holmgang on the first Monolith, it's generally a waste to use it on the second Megalith. Hardly anything is going on at that point of the fight, so you're better off lightly mitigating it and saving Holmgang for the final phase (I use it on Earthen Anguish and have the healers pretty much ignore me up to that point).

[BarretOblivion]

Soo... 3.5 years? According to your logic then PLD has been top dog for even longer. Ignore ARR when you only have 2 options for two slots lets focus the argument on when they had competition.
HW? Yeah WAR was always played. SB? Beginning first 6 months until Sigma it was kinda split between DRK/WAR then WAR stayed top after the change. I mean why isn't DRK/GNB the top dogs and PLD at the bottom? See the slippery slope of "well WAR doesn't need to be the king all the time". No it doesn't but that doesn't mean it should be the worst either. Healthy discussion on small changes to WAR until 6.0 where they will likely give WAR a full rework (cause if they don't I'll go into a comma playing WAR)

[BarretOblivion]

Just so people are aware, the DPS gap between WAR and GNB is anywhere between ~2-5% depends on whether you're looking at rDPS vs aDPS. There's also fight-by-fight variance to consider, as well as the percentile bracket, but they're not nearly as relevant as rDPS vs aDPS. It's all well and good to look at rDPS when you're doing comparisons within a job, for the most part, but it doesn't give you the full picture when comparing different jobs.

Also, regarding E4S and Holmgang, while it is good to use Holmgang on the first Monolith, it's generally a waste to use it on the second Megalith. Hardly anything is going on at that point of the fight, so you're better off lightly mitigating it and saving Holmgang for the final phase (I use it on Earthen Anguish and have the healers pretty much ignore me up to that point).

Excalty, Holmgang can be nice for one Monolith, after that its basically kinda pointless till the end where you are saving 1 cooldown for each of the tanks for soaking it... but honestly that cooldown when you need it will be up again for the final Monolith (rampart).
When it comes to DPS Im not mentioning DPS, that's up to SE. WAR should be the lowest dealing tank because it has the lowest skill floor/cieling of all the tanks now with GNB definately the highest and only getting a small amount more damage than WAR. That is of course if GNB can keep uptime on the boss. If they can't and WAR can land all of its IRs with no problems then they are even. PLD on the other hand... I can't think of a scenario where WAR would be dealing more than them besides maybe AoE? But that's padding and I think PLD is stronger in that aspect to (slightly). When you factor in raid buffs... WAR only is affect greatly by 5, Brotherhood, Embolden, Devotion, Technical Finish and Trick Attack. Battle litany and Battle Voice have low effects on a WAR compared to all other tanks so if your group is running a DRG/BRD you are missing out unfortunately.
However as you stated, its fight by fight basis and on E4S WAR can get brutally cuck*d by mechanics and waist IRs with how akward the fight can be for them. Missing an IR is just a death sentance to a WAR.

[whiskeybravo]

Also, regarding E4S and Holmgang, while it is good to use Holmgang on the first Monolith, it's generally a waste to use it on the second Megalith. Hardly anything is going on at that point of the fight, so you're better off lightly mitigating it and saving Holmgang for the final phase (I use it on Earthen Anguish and have the healers pretty much ignore me up to that point).

Seems like that would depend slightly on the comp. Bene saves healer GCDs, and instead of using CDs for 2nd Megalith you can use them to boost SiO for previous tumults. Our PLD uses HG on last Stonecrusher (2nd and 3rd hit) and Megalith, so there'd be no point in my saving Holmgang for that.

[Capn_Goggles]

The best solution would actually be to knock GNB's damage down a peg, since it offers such "great" utility. But that's unlikely to happen anytime soon since it's this expansions shiny new toy.

That would be literally the worst solution. GNB is probably the only time a new job has released pretty much perfectly balanced for an expansion release. GNB offers more DPS in exchange for slightly more stringent uptime requirements, middling utility, and the worst personal cooldowns.

[whiskeybravo]

That would be literally the worst solution. GNB is probably the only time a new job has released pretty much perfectly balanced for an expansion release. GNB offers more DPS in exchange for slightly more stringent uptime requirements, middling utility, and the worst personal cooldowns.

I don't see what uptime requirements has to do with anything. You should always try to get as much uptime as possible regardless of job.

And the comment was in context to the quoted poster glorifying GNB utility. Which is why I put "great" in quotation marks, implying a bit of sarcasm.

I'd still rather them nerf GNB, if no other reason than to watch the metafanboys wrinkle up from soaking in their pool of tears.

[Capn_Goggles]

I'd still rather them nerf GNB, if no other reason than to watch the metafanboys wrinkle up from soaking in their pool of tears.

Then Paladin would be meta and you'd have literally the exact same situation, until paladin gets nerfed, and now the top two tanks have a .05% DPS advantage and are now meta. That's a completely pointless sentiment to hold because meta will always exist, even if everyone is a literal gray blob. "Yes, but we're grayer and blobbier". I can't fathom why people get into these camps for certain jobs and think nerfs/buffs are salvos to other enemy camps.

[ForteNightshade]

Excalty, Holmgang can be nice for one Monolith, after that its basically kinda pointless till the end where you are saving 1 cooldown for each of the tanks for soaking it... but honestly that cooldown when you need it will be up again for the final Monolith (rampart).
When it comes to DPS Im not mentioning DPS, that's up to SE. WAR should be the lowest dealing tank because it has the lowest skill floor/cieling of all the tanks now with GNB definately the highest and only getting a small amount more damage than WAR. That is of course if GNB can keep uptime on the boss. If they can't and WAR can land all of its IRs with no problems then they are even. PLD on the other hand... I can't think of a scenario where WAR would be dealing more than them besides maybe AoE? But that's padding and I think PLD is stronger in that aspect to (slightly). When you factor in raid buffs... WAR only is affect greatly by 5, Brotherhood, Embolden, Devotion, Technical Finish and Trick Attack. Battle litany and Battle Voice have low effects on a WAR compared to all other tanks so if your group is running a DRG/BRD you are missing out unfortunately.
However as you stated, its fight by fight basis and on E4S WAR can get brutally cuck*d by mechanics and waist IRs with how akward the fight can be for them. Missing an IR is just a death sentance to a WAR.

Difficulty or complexity should never be considered for job balance. All it accomplishes is punishing you for playing an "easier" job, which in turn, makes people not want to play them. It also isn't anywhere near consistent. Ninja and Summoner are by far the most complex DPS yet neither compete for top tier in their respective category; Summoner getting absolutely bodied by Black Mage.

Ironically, you could make a case Warrior is actually much harder to optimize than say Paladin due to how clunky Storm's Eye, IR and Infuriate can be.

[whiskeybravo]

I can't fathom why people get into these camps for certain jobs and think nerfs/buffs are salvos to other enemy camps.

Fight fire with fire, or don't fight at all. Some people certainly have no qualms holding WAR accountable for the last 3 years of tank imbalance, to the point of now having to argue "why even bring a WAR". Even with this supposedly being the DRK expansion, the blame has been heaped on WAR because of the direction of DRK's re-work, instead of looking to the elephants in the room which are outshining both right now.