Is Blm gonna be the only accepted range option now? :(

[Akiudo]

This is how I personally see a good dps balance for the game :

first and foremost, i agree with your general direction, and if real numbers would look like that than i don't believe there wouldn't be half as much complaints, or at least not half as much reason to complain, there is however just one thing i have to question, mind you thats not just to you but to everyone. so with that being said :

why do you think raid buffs (i assume you mean dps buffs with that) should be taxed higher than the dps a class factually lost ? if this is your 99, percentile i'm just gonna take your samurai and your ninja here as an example, both are melees and both offer absolutely nothing but dps,one through personal, one through raidbuffs, but still both offer only dps. so why should the ninja be taxed 1600 personal dps for a buff that only buffs the group for 1500 dps ? obviously they will never be perfectly balanced and all, but as we are playing wish fullfillment here right now, what use is buffing the group dps if even in a best case scenario (and i would assume 99% parses are best case scenarios) you lose more personal dps than your buffs will bring the group ?

and yes this would also mean that under totally perfect conditions dnc should actually overtake bard and potentially mch (don't know what "utility dancer has, like really no idea, can only say that by far the most usefull "utility" of bard is troubadour which mch and dancer both have their own versions off), again though, i don't want to bash on your numbers, i think the general direction is a good one, i simply fail to see the usefullness off "raid buffs" if even under perfect circumstances you pay more personal than the whole group gets in exchange

[Capn_Goggles]

why do you think raid buffs (i assume you mean dps buffs with that) should be taxed higher than the dps a class factually lost ? if this is your 99, percentile i'm just gonna take your samurai and your ninja here as an example, both are melees and both offer absolutely nothing but dps,one through personal, one through raidbuffs, but still both offer only dps. so why should the ninja be taxed 1600 personal dps for a buff that only buffs the group for 1500 dps ? obviously they will never be perfectly balanced and all, but as we are playing wish fullfillment here right now, what use is buffing the group dps if even in a best case scenario (and i would assume 99% parses are best case scenarios) you lose more personal dps than your buffs will bring the group ?

To play devil's avocado: Raid buffs are inherently a much more volatile balancing situation because their power can vary wildly based on team composition and coordination. In theoretical execution, yes a Ninja and a Samurai should do exactly the same damage in an ideal scenario catering to both, but because Samurai has zero DPS utility he is infinitely easier to solve. "We'll give him X potencies based on Y rotation, and realistically we can expect Z amount of damage against a training dummy". So the question is, at what level of play do you balance the buff-centric jobs around? If ninja is balanced to play with a team of rock-bottom DPS playing poorly, it's going to look absolutely insane at the top end where you have statics coordinating buff timings and using their burst optimally... but then on the other end of the scale if Ninja is buffed around that level of play it's going to look sad if everyone is playing just averagely.

It definitely gets the noggin' a joggin'. Unfortunately the best way to accomplish this is to release jobs to where you think they'll do okay, and let the players do the legwork in finding out what is performing where and adjust accordingly, which sometimes is less than ideal when starting out the patch cycle because you end up here with obviously inferior jobs.

[Cetonis]

To play devil's avocado: Raid buffs are inherently a much more volatile balancing situation because their power can vary wildly based on team composition and coordination.

Ah, but if the Ninja is getting higher than expected value because Samurai leverages Trick at an unusually high rate - is that a benefit to bringing Ninja, or a benefit to bringing Samurai? rDPS, as fflogs calculates it, is always going to underrate Samurai, and to varying lesser extents other jobs that can hold portions of damage for buff windows (Dancer, Dark Knight etc).

[Capn_Goggles]

Ah, but if the Ninja is getting higher than expected value because Samurai leverages Trick at an unusually high rate - is that a benefit to bringing Ninja, or a benefit to bringing Samurai? rDPS, as fflogs calculates it, is always going to underrate Samurai, and to varying lesser extents other jobs that can hold portions of damage for buff windows (Dancer, Dark Knight etc).

It's not so much underrating samurai as it's more accurately representing the DPS it's bringing in and of itself; of course, that's also going to affect the rDPS of the NIN, but to a much lesser extent than one would imagine.

[Cetonis]

It's not so much underrating samurai as it's more accurately representing the DPS it's bringing in and of itself; of course, that's also going to affect the rDPS of the NIN, but to a much lesser extent than one would imagine.

It's actually more than you might think - Samurai leverages Trick to the tune of around +200 dps or so compared to Monk, and maybe +175ish compared to Dragoon. Most speedrun-minded folk see that as the value of bringing Samurai, though maybe ideally it'd be seen as an a+b synergy bonus where maybe NIN+SAM outdoes MNK+DRG or something. But in the context of NIN being a lock throughout much of history, it's a benefit specific to SAM.

In any case, fflogs' rdps rankings have no idea any of this is going on, and it's a not-trivial blind spot.

[BarretOblivion]

It's actually more than you might think - Samurai leverages Trick to the tune of around +200 dps or so compared to Monk, and maybe +175ish compared to Dragoon. Most speedrun-minded folk see that as the value of bringing Samurai, though maybe ideally it'd be seen as an a+b synergy bonus where maybe NIN+SAM outdoes MNK+DRG or something. But in the context of NIN being a lock throughout much of history, it's a benefit specific to SAM.

In any case, fflogs' rdps rankings have no idea any of this is going on, and it's a not-trivial blind spot.

Yeah... because Trick attack now goes out really late of the 7th GCD compared to before when it came out on the 4th GCD. If you are running a Ninja your rotation can become awkward on the opener if you are used to not having a ninja. Its one of those issues where you have relearn an entire opener because 1 class decides not to line up all other raid buffs that are going off sooner.

[Akiudo]

To play devil's avocado: Raid buffs are inherently a much more volatile balancing situation because their power can vary wildly based on team composition and coordination. In theoretical execution, yes a Ninja and a Samurai should do exactly the same damage in an ideal scenario catering to both, but because Samurai has zero DPS utility he is infinitely easier to solve. "We'll give him X potencies based on Y rotation, and realistically we can expect Z amount of damage against a training dummy". So the question is, at what level of play do you balance the buff-centric jobs around? If ninja is balanced to play with a team of rock-bottom DPS playing poorly, it's going to look absolutely insane at the top end where you have statics coordinating buff timings and using their burst optimally... but then on the other end of the scale if Ninja is buffed around that level of play it's going to look sad if everyone is playing just averagely.

It definitely gets the noggin' a joggin'. Unfortunately the best way to accomplish this is to release jobs to where you think they'll do okay, and let the players do the legwork in finding out what is performing where and adjust accordingly, which sometimes is less than ideal when starting out the patch cycle because you end up here with obviously inferior jobs.

not saying i disagree but please see my statement in context, that was what was proposed as ideal balance at 99% , mind you that was for personal percentiles and that and groups obviously aren't allways the same, i still think we should generally balance under the assumption that the group is as good as the single player, so if you do 99% the general range of your group should be at least 90+, of course this isn't allways true but at least it is a guideline , and a "not necessary truly happening" guideline is better then none at all in such a case i believe. also i'm gonna be honest here i'm thinking trick is too strong (mind you, weaker trick=more personal dps, not just "nerf trick" and classes will never be perfectly balanced either way, as long as they play even 1% different i'm not even sure what "perfectly balanced" really means). either way, my main argument was that if you propose something as "that is for the 99" percentile than that should be an ideal case, and if you balance so that in an ideal case the weaker personal class just stays weaker than well, it is just that , weaker. it wouldn't work out as clean cut in practice either way, mostly i wanted to second guess the thought process behind it.

Also, mind you that is a different topic but personally at least i believe raiddps (that includes ultimate) should be balanced in a general "these are the groups that kill it, the good, the great, the totally awesome and also the not so good but hey, at least they pulled through" way excluding speedkill "balance". There obviously will allways be a best way no matter what, and as their will allways be an absolute best combination no matter what i am of the opinion it is futile to think about the theoretical "if they perfectly stack classes in this way, than do a ritual where they offer their firstborns, followed by the summoning of one of the archdukes of hell...... " which is exactly why i think buff classes should overtake "pures" at the top, if nin is 100 dps better than samurai 90+, equal to it below 50 and 90 and worse below 50 i don't think it is a problem if its in fact 250 dps the nin has on the samurai if you do some vodoo to make it work to enter the top 10 speedkill rankings, because the people that go to these lengths will only take the perfect combination either way. doesn't matter if nin beats out samurai by 50 or 250, or on the other hand it doesn't matter if the nin is or stays a 100 dps below or 300