Bard's Thematic Future

[HyoMinPark]

This is unrelated and uncalled for. SE takes feedback from its entire userbase equally, and have even stated as much in the past. There is no reason to try and belittle someone or their ideas whether or not you have cleared UwU or anything else for that matter. You can be just as passionate about a job as someone else no matter if you clear endgame raids or stick to dungeons. Clearing endgame does not give you the right to call someone an outsider.

I think the point of this quip was to point out that some of us have mained and played this job for years. Whereas there are people making suggestions to change Bard to Ranger that haven’t played the job or who decided to pick it up this expansion because now it’s closer to what they want; otherwise, they’ve ignored it through its best and its worst. However, it’s suddenly crucial that they get their ideal job, and screw those who want Bard to return to being a Bard, I guess. That’s the impression I’ve gotten from posters, anyways: in this thread and a few others.

[ty_taurus]

Maybe we could just add in a new musically oriented job, leaving Bard the way it is, but we can call the new music job "Ranger" instead of Musician and the like.

[Mahrze]

I agree that it would've been a very interesting way to bridge the two archetypes... if it actually influenced anything about Bard's abilities and identity instead of just be a mild cosmetic attachment.

Well, the attachment is what adds more complexity to BRD than it would be as a Ranger. It at this point has most if not all the abilities it could get as a ranger, with the bonus now being the harp you seem to not like, as its not integrated to the job identity/archetype instead of some cosmetic fanservice.


Unless you'd rather see them add "animals/critters" to support them because then it would definitely not tread on MCH/SMN territory with pets. And we know how they 'love' pets.

[HyoMinPark]

Maybe we could just add in a new musically oriented job, leaving Bard the way it is, but we can call the new music job "Ranger" instead of Musician and the like.

Or we can make BRD more BRD-like, returning musical elements to its Archer-Bard hybrid nature, and give those who want Ranger a Ranger job worthy of the name. Your suggestion here will produce nothing more than threads like this, except the argument will be “why the fresh heck is a Ranger playing songs”.

[ty_taurus]

Or we can make BRD more BRD-like, returning musical elements to its Archer-Bard hybrid nature, and give those who want Ranger a Ranger job worthy of the name. Your suggestion here will produce nothing more than threads like this, except the argument will be “why the fresh heck is a Ranger playing songs”.

Why the fresh heck is Bard shooting arrows? I feel like there's a double standard at play here where having an Archer who maybe sings a song on occasion is something we've established is what many of you posting here want to retain, but it's not okay for us to include an instrument wielding job disconnected from Bard entirely for the players who want a musical job.

Well, the attachment is what adds more complexity to BRD than it would be as a Ranger. It at this point has most if not all the abilities it could get as a ranger, with the bonus now being the harp you seem to not like, as its not integrated to the job identity/archetype instead of some cosmetic fanservice.


Unless you'd rather see them add "animals/critters" to support them because then it would definitely not tread on MCH/SMN territory with pets. And we know how they 'love' pets.

Wait, how does a glorified Christmas Ornament that hangs form like 5 bows in the game and does literally nothing else add more complexity to Bard?

[MartaDemireux]

I think the point of this quip was to point out that some of us have mained and played this job for years. Whereas there are people making suggestions to change Bard to Ranger that haven’t played the job or who decided to pick it up this expansion because now it’s closer to what they want; otherwise, they’ve ignored it through its best and its worst. However, it’s suddenly crucial that they get their ideal job, and screw those who want Bard to return to being a Bard, I guess. That’s the impression I’ve gotten from posters, anyways: in this thread and a few others.

It makes little difference. There are people who have been playing BRD since its incarnation in 1.x that haven't even attempted endgame just as there are people who clear endgame in the same year that they join.

Passion is completely unrelated to endgame progress and it was a very elitist way to try and insult someone and insinuate they are more passionate than another which is immeasurable.

When it comes to job flavor, no opinion is more valuable than another. When it comes to raiding balance, then their opinion may be more valuable in terms of that specifically. But last I checked, that isn't what this is about.

[SaitoHikari]

I think the point of this quip was to point out that some of us have mained and played this job for years. Whereas there are people making suggestions to change Bard to Ranger that haven’t played the job or who decided to pick it up this expansion because now it’s closer to what they want; otherwise, they’ve ignored it through its best and its worst. However, it’s suddenly crucial that they get their ideal job, and screw those who want Bard to return to being a Bard, I guess. That’s the impression I’ve gotten from posters, anyways: in this thread and a few others.

This is what I was going for, yes.

It's hard to take this community seriously when so many people on this side of the ocean advocate for drastic measures to happen, without any consideration for the logistics that goes into designing such things. Again, if this were as trivial as people think it'd be, Summoner and Scholar would have been fully split by now. And yet... They still aren't, despite that they already existed as separate jobs from the beginning, and the developers OPENLY admitting that this was a mistake for years.

(Also, some posters in this thread would really hate DnD, which is what Ultima was inspired by, which is what ultimately inspired FF as a franchise, if not all of modern RPGs as a whole. In DnD, Bards can wield any weapon, shared un-Bard like utility magic with the pure spellcasting classes, had exclusive crowd control magic with the most famous being literally insulting someone in the wittiest way you could come up with, and instruments are treated as side equipment for flavor/skill check purposes. If anything, the concept of Bards who can't wield traditional weapons and stick purely to instruments is the highly unnatural concept that deviates from what Bards originally were in the old days.)

Challenge accepted, see you in a few hours.

Alright, sure. I'll even be a little lenient and give you three days to work on this. I won't accept glamour-based measures as an answer, since the original topic was about splitting Bard into two fully fledged classes.

[Mahrze]

Wait, how does a glorified Christmas Ornament that hangs form like 5 bows in the game and does literally nothing else add more complexity to Bard?

Aight, I'll bite.

You're not mistaken that for all intents and purposes. A BRD right now has very little things to do in terms of stepping into either being a "Bard in the whole sense" or be a "True Archer/Ranger who uses the bow like a bowman should", this is stemming from making more generic comparisons about the archetypes of both "jobs".

However, BRD as it stands already checks the boxes of both "archetypes" rather well without them having to be super interwoven and show some form of artistic synergy.
Would I like for abilities to be more "in theme" with notes and other music things to really make BRD shine as a musically themed job? Yes, yes I would.
Do I have realistic expectations and know that this may not if ever happen? Yes, yes I do.
Would I like this in lieu of the lack of weapons and other items that seem like they are tacked on and offer little to no distinguishable feature/requirement for their performance? I think you see the pattern here.

The way they took Archer which was a simplified Ranger in the early days of the game and chose Bard instead of a Ranger because they had their reasons to (whichever those are) doesn't take away that this job which has plenty of potential in its design is better off built on and improved on said design than saying "screw it, make two jobs and let any and all shenanigans be dealt with in due time".

Not invalidating your desire, but I am not subscribed to "I want this to be a thing with what I have and you guys who are attaching this other thing to what I want should get another thing that makes your thing separate from mine, regardless of what comes and goes from it".


Now, I do have complaints with how SE likes to make mutually exclusive both being the new kid on the block and said new kid needs to have all the tools. Bard and Dancer shouldn't be at odds as to who gives what. They can each give out something as support to their teams. And the fact that songs get gutted in some form for the sake of letting the new kid shine with dances is a bit annoying to say the least.


A bard could easily offer support without causing a double dip with a dancer in the group. Even more so when DNC mostly buffs only one player with 0 downtime.

[HyoMinPark]

It makes little difference. There are people who have been playing BRD since its incarnation in 1.x that haven't even attempted endgame just as there are people who clear endgame in the same year that they join.

Passion is completely unrelated to endgame progress and it was a very elitist way to try and insult someone and insinuate they are more passionate than another which is immeasurable.

When it comes to job flavor, no opinion is more valuable than another. When it comes to raiding balance, then their opinion may be more valuable in terms of that specifically. But last I checked, that isn't what this is about.

I’d say the opinions of those who have stuck with a job for years carries a bit more weight than opinions from someone who picked it up two months ago and decided they want it completely overhauled to satisfy their desires, or opinions from those of whom don’t even play the job.

Why the fresh heck is Bard shooting arrows? I feel like there's a double standard at play here where having an Archer who maybe sings a song on occasion is something we've established is what many of you posting here want to retain, but it's not okay for us to include an instrument wielding job disconnected from Bard entirely for the players who want a musical job.

Because it’s an Archer-Bard hybrid. Because of its lore in this game. I suggest you go and read Beddict’s last post to you, which nicely outlined the evolution the developers gave Archer as it journeys and transitions into Bard. The job is a hybrid job.

You haven’t really been advocating for a musician-style job. At least, not in any positive way. As I pointed out prior, your suggestion for Musician involved gutting Bard, which people are advocating against. This is in addition to your Bard/Ranger split discussion a few posts back, which, again, guts the existing job. Every suggestion you make is to give you what you want; but you don’t stop to consider what others want. And it comes off, to me at least, as if you don’t care what happens to Bard or how those who want to make it more BRD-y feel so long as you get what you want. It’s selfish.

I don’t care if they want to add Musician or Ranger or whatever. But don’t destroy my job to do so. And that’s ultimately what your suggestions do, which is why I’m arguing against them.

[LunaFaelyn]

I am shy and bad with conveying my thoughts but here it goes. Yes, I have popped in to other bard forums. I have tried to help support all the crazy ideas out there. Why? Because I want the fighting to stop. I am a peacemaker at heart. I want everyone to be happy. But inside I have been screaming, "I want bard back! I don't want to be a ranger! I don't want to play only a harp." And Hyomin's frustrations are not that far off from my own. SE put archer and bard together and some of us love it that way.

Bard has been my main since the beginning. It was my starting job. The job I played through every msq. The job I studied to be able to join a static and be at my top performance. The job I RDed as to help with my shyness. The perspective of my short stories on my FC's discord. It is my passion. And doing the amazing ShB story as bard as it is soured the story for me a little.

This thread is called "Bard's thematic future" not ranger, not minstrel....bard. As in FF14's vision of bard. Which is a bow wielding job that once sang to to fortify the spirits of their companions. I just want to feel like a good support job again.

So I end with a thank you to all the people that are passionate about ff14's version of bard. Thank you for finding the words that I can not. Thank you for being a voice that I can find comfort in.