Astrologian 5.0 Discussion

[MintnHoney]

Yall are proving his point. Someone is always going to he displeased.

And yet, all he's really saying is that he doesn't care that he knowingly upset many of the original players of the jobs in question, though in Ninja's case he's more receptive to the feedback because it's a DPS job.
It goes both ways: we proved his point, he's proving ours.

[Hatstand]

Yall are proving his point. Someone is always going to he displeased.

Yes, but who is displeased, why, and how many people are displeased are important.

For example, imagine 5 friends are deciding what to get for dinner. Alice, Bob, Charlie, and David wamt Thai. Emma wants pizza. Emma argues that no matter which food they get, someone will be unhappy, so they may as well get pizza. We wouldn't think Emma had much of an argument.

Similarly, according to flogs, AST use is only at about 25% of what it should be (for all healers to be equally well played), so it seems SE is making the Emmas happy and ignoring everyone else.

As another example, imagine it's just Alice and Bob. Alice wants Pizza, Bob wants Thai, but Alice wants pizza because she's alergic to nuts and she's worried she won't be able to eat any food at the Thai restaurant safely. Again, one will be unhappy regardless of the outcome, but we'd still think Alice's preference should take priority because of the reasons for it.

Similarly, many controller players report that new AST is very difficult to play well on a controller because of how often and rapidly you need to target specific party members. Even if 50% of ASTs liked new AST (which I don't believe), controller issues alone would justify another change to the card system.

Finally, imagine that Alice, Bob, and Charlie are going out for dinner, and David will be given whatever leftovers are being brought home (although he's not contributing to the cost of the meal). Alice and Bob want Thai. Charlie and David want pizza. In this situation we would think they should get Thai, because, while David is affected by the choice, he's not affected as much as Alice, Bob, and Charlie, nor is he contributing to their meal.

Similarly, many people who don't play AST seem to like the benefits they get from new AST, and while their opinions have value, they shouldn't carry as much weight as the opinions of people who feel the effect of the AST toolkit the most (the ASTs) and those who put in the work involved with the ASTs presence (again, the AST).

This situation, unlike the new AST, has nuance.

[Mesarthim]

Yall are proving his point. Someone is always going to he displeased.

You mean the point that wouldn't have been a thing had they not done this rather controversial change in the first place?

You're talking like we're only "mad" because we're displeased with the changes because there is now a new vs old, two camps essentially. There didn't need to be a second camp in the first place.

[Brandedblade]

You mean the point that wouldn't have been a thing had they not done this rather controversial change in the first place?

You're talking like we're only "mad" because we're displeased with the changes because there is now a new vs old, two camps essentially. There didn't need to be a second camp in the first place.

If the old card system was in place, there would be people complaining about the rng or the fact that there's one card that's been mathed out to he the next card. There will always be two camps, the one that likes the new and one that does not. No matter what they do there will be someome who likes it and someone who doesn't.

[Mesarthim]

If the old card system was in place, there would be people complaining about the rng or the fact that there's one card that's been mathed out to he the next card. There will always be two camps, the one that likes the new and one that does not. No matter what they do there will be someome who likes it and someone who doesn't.

No one is saying it was perfect. Literally all that needed to be done was modify Spire and Balance really. "This" card system didn't need to happen. The old system didn't need to be as gutted as it was for a system people who didn't even really play AST seem to like (and if they did play AST and hate it then ???).

See here's the thing. They didn't have to do something because in case you haven't noticed AST popularity seems to have tanked quite a bit, unless I am mistaken. Drop the whole "no matter what X does, Y will be angry" stuff. AST didn't deserve this because guess what? There's 2 other healers for the people who didn't like AST before to play. Maybe one of them could suit them.

I really don't seem to be seeing sunshines and rainbows with the current AST, nor do a lot of other people if you've been keeping up with the community.

[Billythepancake]

If the old card system was in place, there would be people complaining about the rng or the fact that there's one card that's been mathed out to he the next card. There will always be two camps, the one that likes the new and one that does not. No matter what they do there will be someome who likes it and someone who doesn't.

I dunno man, I didn't like AST RNG last expansion, but I didn't complain about it, because I had SCH instead. Funny that, there was a ton of classes, all playing differently, so if one didn't suit me I didn't cry over it, because there was certainly one that did. ASTs now have no class to fall back on because now their unique gameplay and decision making class is gone, with no suitable replacement. (Hell, if you don't like 1 healer this expansion, you won't like any of them because of how everything unique and fun of them was taken away to make them all essentially the same exact class) If people don't like RNG then chances are a card based class was not for them. (cards, you know, RNG before RNG was a thing). A way to manipulate the RNG, but at a cost, would've been a better comprise,but I digress.

[Miziliti]

If the old card system was in place, there would be people complaining about the rng or the fact that there's one card that's been mathed out to he the next card. There will always be two camps, the one that likes the new and one that does not. No matter what they do there will be someome who likes it and someone who doesn't.

If by definition old card system is such huge failure because there were complaints, then the new card system would be a catastrophe a billion times worse because even the players that tolerated old card system is abandoning ship.

The "someone who doesn't" are obviously the majority here.

Imagine the product you've been using for a long time (StB AST) got a new version that has nothing you liked from the original one you have (ShB AST), so you instead have to buy from other brand (WHM/SCH).

If devs are counting on "new incoming players" to like new AST without any idea how original AST worked, chances are another StB MCH will be born.

[KanameYuuki]

I dunno man, I didn't like AST RNG last expansion, but I didn't complain about it, because I had SCH instead. Funny that, there was a ton of classes, all playing differently, so if one didn't suit me I didn't cry over it, because there was certainly one that did. ASTs now have no class to fall back on because now their unique gameplay and decision making class is gone, with no suitable replacement. (Hell, if you don't like 1 healer this expansion, you won't like any of them because of how everything unique and fun of them was taken away to make them all essentially the same exact class) If people don't like RNG then chances are a card based class was not for them. (cards, you know, RNG before RNG was a thing). A way to manipulate the RNG, but at a cost, would've been a better comprise,but I digress.

Exactly, if something isn't for you, it isn't for you, that's the whole idea of having a billion classes on any game, if you hate RNG like it killed your whole family then play something else. I never liked SCH because pet and DoTs management was too much for me but I never complained about it, I just realized it wasn't for me, WHM is too straight forward so that was another one out, I had AST not only as my only choice but as the class I really liked. What about now? they all are too simple and too alike, so no healing for me then.

[Crushnight]

We've got this gem:



Perfectly fine to please the new ones but a middle finger for the old guard, welp.

Welp that could be applied to literally anything /s incoming Stormblood mch was better it didn't need change, mnk was perfect pre 5.05 why did you change this, nin has always been good leave everything as it is now, smn should have big 1 time a day summons not these demis, Pagos was perfect why did you nerf it, Gordias was fine we need more gear walls like it.

So SE please share your data that ast is in such a good spot that you won't even consider changes to a system which is far more harmful than good for console players, has greater group dependency to be as useful as it can be even a good dnc with a bad partner is better than an all melee group in duty finder for ast , ast has seen a big decline in savage worse than whm had gotten throughout Stormblood your thoughts?

This statement to me is them openly admitting they could not handle trying to balance the old ast card system and they gave up on it and all i can say is grow a pair and get more staff for job balance team it shouldn't be just 4 people that isn't even 1 person per role >_>

[Brandedblade]

Ast is in a good spot numbers wise, it's just that some people dont find it fun, and that will always be a matter of perspective. Like I've said, and what the developers said, someone will always be mad about something and theres no point in trying to please everyone. They made this change because people complained about the rng and because they've attempted to reduce class synergies, hence why the cards only provide one type of damage gain.

As has been mentioned before, damage mitigation and resource management should never be tied to rng because you cannot quantify their value when you arent guaranteed to have it. And for the latter that had been removed across the board, why should only ast have access to mp regen when ranged physical lost their refresh and casters lost mana shift? Why does astro need Bole on rng when it already has access to shielding and Collective for damage mitigation? Why should it have access to crit and haste on an rng when it could just consistently provide damage buffs that can be consistently quantified and balanced around?

I get that y'all want nuance and for luck to decide what you have to deal with. But alot of the things provided from the old card system are at best things that shouldn't be tied to random chance and at worst removed from other classes. While they could improve the interactivity of the current system in some regards, what the current system provides is still the healthiest system for balancing AST's contribution to its group.