Let's Theorize a 5.1 Balance Patch.

[SaberMaxwell]

No one is saying this. Your post is hyperbole. The closest anyone came to saying anything like this was me explaining why I think the developers have an issue with it, and have said multiple times I personally think it's a non-issue. Posts like the one you just made, that take things out of context and exaggerate, only hurt discussion.

Your statement was "vercure is useful and deserves to be taxed because as an on demand targeted heal it can fix other people's mistakes." What am I supposed to get from that?

Vercure is a useful strategic tool to prep dualcast while the boss is away; it's the only spell RDM can target a non enemy with. Turning it into an ogcd ruins this advantage it gives almost to the point RDM might not even have it.

As cost for vercure, RDM has no defensive buffs. We have no Titan, as unused as he is; we have no manawall. Our survivability is strictly reactive and costs us damage uptime on a job that has no DoTs, so when it's not actively attacking the boss it's doing no damage whatsoever. Vercure usage is it's own tax. You're never going to have people going "I could take BLM but what if both healers die and I need to vercure spam the tanks?" The way you would "I could BLM but what if we need verraise?"

[Miralyth]

Your statement was "vercure is useful and deserves to be taxed because as an on demand targeted heal it can fix other people's mistakes." What am I supposed to get from that?

Vercure is a useful strategic tool to prep dualcast while the boss is away; it's the only spell RDM can target a non enemy with. Turning it into an ogcd ruins this advantage it gives almost to the point RDM might not even have it.

As cost for vercure, RDM has no defensive buffs. We have no Titan, as unused as he is; we have no manawall. Our survivability is strictly reactive and costs us damage uptime on a job that has no DoTs, so when it's not actively attacking the boss it's doing no damage whatsoever. Vercure usage is it's own tax. You're never going to have people going "I could take BLM but what if both healers die and I need to vercure spam the tanks?" The way you would "I could BLM but what if we need verraise?"

Most of your post is much more productive than your last one. I agree with what you said, but I think the specific concern for developers isn't self-healing but the ability to heal others.

Your first sentence is still taking me out of context. Here's a quote from me:
"It's almost entirely useless in Savage, but it's game-changing in content like Eureka and dungeons. The developers will never let this go, even if someone like me who mentions it in an online forum thinks it's stupid for Savage and hurting RDM's balance. If you don't want to be taxed for it, convince them to take it away from you. It's really, really powerful in casual content and the devs obviously care a ton about that."

There are multiple other times I have said I think this is a developer issue, as well as multiple times I have said I don't think it should matter in Savage. The only, only reason I have bothered discussing vercure this much is exactly because I'm worried the developers care too much about it and I have been trying to share why I think they care. I have said this multiple times. I have also said multiple times that I personally do not care if vercure is taxed at all and don't think it needs to be, and that balancing casual content against Savage is not something I believe in. I also edited my original post a while ago (and announced in a new post that I made the edit) that I hope the developers learn to stop caring about it. All of this before you posted. If you didn't read the entirety of my posts, that is not my fault.

[SaberMaxwell]

Most of your post is much more productive than your last one. I agree with what you said, but I think the specific concern for developers isn't self-healing but the ability to heal others.

Your first sentence is still taking me out of context. Here's a quote from me:
"It's almost entirely useless in Savage, but it's game-changing in content like Eureka and dungeons. The developers will never let this go, even if someone like me who mentions it in an online forum thinks it's stupid for Savage and hurting RDM's balance. If you don't want to be taxed for it, convince them to take it away from you. It's really, really powerful in casual content and the devs obviously care a ton about that."

There are multiple other times I have said I think this is a developer issue, as well as multiple times I have said I don't think it should matter in Savage. The only, only reason I have bothered discussing vercure this much is exactly because I'm worried the developers care too much about it and I have been trying to share why I think they care. I have said this multiple times. I have also said multiple times that I personally do not care if vercure is taxed at all and don't think it needs to be, and that balancing casual content against Savage is not something I believe in. I also edited my original post a while ago (and announced in a new post that I made the edit) that I hope the developers learn to stop caring about it. All of this before you posted. If you didn't read the entirety of my posts, that is not my fault.

This whole discussion began because of your post that stated what your opinion was on damage rankings.

I have no opinion on changes to job mechanics, so I'll be providing a simple opinion on damage:

BRD/RDM/DNC:
-pDPS tax for damage buffs
-rDPS tax b/c of various utility and mobility (BRD/DNC) (see below)
-rDPS tax for vercure*** and strongest raise potential in the game

You didn't write the dev's opinion nor do you have any provable access to their inner workings. This post was about your opinion. So you'll have to forgive everyone for believing that your opinion was that vercure should be a taxed ability for Red Mage, given that this was stated in your opinionated tierlist. I see now you walked it back, but you wouldn't have had to if your post was, instead of your opinion, clarified to be a post about your beliefs of the dev's opinions. I also see no response to Zyneste's point that Paladin with its Clemency is the second strongest tank, which runs contrary to your belief of the dev's opinions that a targeted on-demand heal needs to be taxed.

[Miralyth]

This whole discussion began because of your post that stated what your opinion was on damage rankings.



You didn't write the dev's opinion nor do you have any provable access to their inner workings. This post was about your opinion. So you'll have to forgive everyone for believing that your opinion was that vercure should be a taxed ability for Red Mage, given that this was stated in your opinionated tierlist. I see now you walked it back, but you wouldn't have had to if your post was, instead of your opinion, clarified to be a post about your beliefs of the dev's opinions. I also see no response to Zyneste's point that Paladin with its Clemency is the second strongest tank, which runs contrary to your belief of the dev's opinions that a targeted on-demand heal needs to be taxed.

Really? Obviously, I don't know what the devs think. I used statements like "I think" and "I worry". You could just as easily say that we should never consider that the devs have a stubborn philosophy (which is frequently discussed), because how could we know?

I did clarify my beliefs in a follow-up post when I read everyone's post. In the very first follow-up I made. I owned up to needing to explain myself. I'm well aware my original post could have been better, and it's why I edited it after seeing people's responses. This is plain as damn day and you're conveniently ignoring it. Again. In the next post, I admitted that singling out vercure in the list by name was a dumb mistake. Your only attempt at discounting this is by saying I'm back-walking? This is some serious grasping at straws to discount everything I've said and try to paint your obvious post skimming on me.

As for clemency, I didn't want to open up another can of worms about tank balance. Clemency also has way more of an impact on a paladin's rotation than vercure does on a red mage's. Their loss goes beyond a GCD.

[SaberMaxwell]

Really? Obviously, I don't know what the devs think. I used statements like "I think" and "I worry". You could just as easily say that we should never consider that the devs have a stubborn philosophy (which is frequently discussed), because how could we know?

I did clarify my beliefs in a follow-up post when I read everyone's post. In the very first follow-up I made. I owned up to needing to explain myself. I'm well aware my original post could have been better, and it's why I edited it after seeing people's responses. This is plain as damn day and you're conveniently ignoring it. Again. In the next post, I admitted that singling out vercure in the list by name was a dumb mistake. Your only attempt at discounting this is by saying I'm back-walking? This is some serious grasping at straws to discount everything I've said and try to paint your obvious post skimming on me.

Hence, "you wouldn't have needed to do that if you were more careful with your original post," and "You'll need to forgive me for believing that to be your stance."

As for clemency, I didn't want to open up another can of worms about tank balance. Clemency also has way more of an impact on a paladin's rotation than vercure does on a red mage's. Their loss goes beyond a GCD.

Red Mage's loss has cascading effects through the whole fight lmfao. Missing that mana here and now could mean no melee for a phase where melee is needed which means even more downtime. That downtime means less mana, and over time less mana means less melee combos.

[Miralyth]

Hence, "you wouldn't have needed to do that if you were more careful with your original post," and "You'll need to forgive me for believing that to be your stance."



Red Mage's loss has cascading effects through the whole fight lmfao. Missing that mana here and now could mean no melee for a phase where melee is needed which means even more downtime. That downtime means less mana, and over time less mana means less melee combos.

The other people's posts and my original post have literally nothing to do with you. That was on you for not reading. Nothing will change that.

Pushing back mana by one GCD is not the same as needing to start a new combo for MP generation for holy spirit and its accompanying cooldown and pushing these back "lmfao". Paladins would also potentially suffer from phase changes with desynced cooldowns/combos/etc. just as red mages would.

[SaberMaxwell]

The other people's posts and my original post have literally nothing to do with you. That was on you for not reading. Nothing will change that.

Pushing back mana by one GCD is not the same as needing to start a new combo for MP generation for holy spirit and its accompanying cooldown and pushing these back "lmfao". Paladins would also potentially suffer from phase changes with desynced cooldowns/combos/etc. just as red mages would.

I was the second person to respond to your original post there, and first to object to your adding vercure to the tax. Do I have nothing to do with myself?

Pushing back mana by one GCD can have disastrous consequences as I pointed out. Having to do an extra combo is bad, but so is losing an entire melee combo opportunity because you were behind, because it also needs to be considered RDM was already a slave to RNG before needing to cast vercure (or verraise, as both are covered under the "I'm now a gcd behind on my rotation" philosophy) in this hypothetical, and they can't guarantee any kind of recovery nor can they guarantee being behind won't spiral into even worse situations for them.

[Miralyth]

I was the first person to respond to your original post there. Who's post skimming now?

Pushing back mana by one GCD can have disastrous consequences as I pointed out. Having to do an extra combo is bad, but so is losing an entire melee combo opportunity because you were behind, because it also needs to be considered RDM was already a slave to RNG before needing to cast vercure (or verraise, as both are covered under the "I'm now a gcd behind on my rotation" philosophy) in this hypothetical, and they can't guarantee any kind of recovery nor can they guarantee being behind won't spiral into even worse situations for them.

This is some desperation not to accept responsibility. I forgot your name from that post. That's on me. See how I owned up to that? The rest is still on you. It also makes your behavior even more questionable, knowing that you didn't just pop in to the end of this and should have been reading since your last post.

And again, paladin suffers the same consequences you just outlined for RDM. Literally any job sacrificing a GCD suffers these consequences. This is not a unique RDM issue.

[SaberMaxwell]

This is some desperation not to accept responsibility. I forgot your name from that post. That's on me. See how I owned up to that? The rest is still on you. It also makes your behavior even more questionable, knowing that you didn't just pop in to the end of this and should have been reading since your last post.

And again, paladin suffers the same consequences you just outlined for RDM. Literally any job sacrificing a GCD suffers these consequences. This is not a unique RDM issue.

I accept responsibility for not seeing your walk-backs. Sorry about that.

Also, I forgive you for forgetting I responded to your initial post. See? Is it so hard to forgive somebody for a mistake?

It is a uniquely Red Mage issue, however, because the melee combo is mobility. Mobility for casters is of supreme importance. Missing the melee combo when one needs to move means missing more casts, which puts the job even further behind. It's a cascading issue; it snowballs. Paladin doesn't have the same issue to the same extent given that it's 100% mobile now, especially now that Requiescat buff gives it instant cast Holy Spirit (and Clemency, and those clemencies are buffed too and don't hold the PLD back from being able to use Confiteor at the end.)

I'm sorry, but I'm done talking with you about this. Our quibbling has wasted way too much real-estate in this thread, if it hasn't derailed it already. I hope the rest of your day is great.

Have a good day o/ Hopefully you can reconcile why the devs let PLD be awesome in its role while having access to Clemency, but making Red Mage the weakest with vercure outlined as a reason.

[Miralyth]

I accept responsibility for not seeing your walk-backs. Sorry about that.

It is a uniquely Red Mage issue, however, because the melee combo is mobility. Mobility for casters is of supreme importance. Missing the melee combo when one needs to move means missing more casts, which puts the job even further behind. It's a cascading issue; it snowballs. Paladin doesn't have the same issue to the same extent given that it's 100% mobile now, especially now that Requiescat buff gives it instant cast Holy Spirit (and Clemency, and those clemencies are buffed too and don't hold the PLD back from being able to use Confiteor at the end.)

I'm sorry, but I'm done talking with you about this. Our quibbling has wasted way too much real-estate in this thread, if it hasn't derailed it already. I hope the rest of your day is great.