Something about the new Ascian lore

[Daralii]

Worth mentioning some Amroo can see a person's soul which is why Seto mistook us for Ardbert when we first met him.

I imagine all the Feyfolk can, since Feo Ul talked about our "beautiful soul" being in tatters after absorbing the Light from Innocence.

[LineageRazor]

Shadowbringers is interesting because you could argue that we are straying into that gray territory. However, looking back on the tone and themes of FFXIV as a whole, it’s actually very doubtful that this is the case. In line with your preferences, the Ascian arc will likely conclude with the message Ancients = bad and new life = good. There are several ways this could happen which have been brought up as theories on the forum: maybe the Ancients themselves are bad because they looked down on mortal life, or perhaps Zodiark’s tempering made them that way (referring to those that approved the sacrificing of new life). There are also strong hints that creation magic was too powerful and for that reason staying sundered is best.

I very much doubt the story is ever going to venture into saying that the PEOPLE are inherently bad or good by nature. People are people - it's the actions they choose to take that can add flavors of good and evil. In this case, what happened to the Ancients was a terrible tragedy, and it's well and good to feel bad for them. It is good and natural for the survivors to search for a way to restore them. However, there are lines that shouldn't be crossed, and the Ascians have been tap-dancing on the far side for at least ten thousand years.

It's basically every story with a mad scientist throwing morals to the wind to bring back a dead loved one.

(Interestingly, this game ALSO features a storyline with a mad scientist throwing morals to the wind to bring back a dead loved one - or, at least, he gave the impression that morals were something for lesser beings than himself. In his case, though aside from his experiments being "unnatural" in the eyes of some, he never actually dipped into villainy. I speak of Sevarian, of the Alchemist's Guild.)

Not every story needs to have shades of grey, no. Though let's not beat around the bush - quite a lot of people around these parts are as biased towards Hydaelyn as I am towards Garlemald.

This may be true - but the game gives us a lot more reasons to sympathize with Hydaelyn than it does with Garlemald! Pro-Garlean folks have to dig a LOT deeper to support their preference - and have to dig mighty deep to take shots at Hydaelyn, as well!

Or used to, anyway - the revelation that Hydaelyn is a Primal, as well as suspicions of her role in the Sundering, were mighty blows against the assumption of her goodness, at least for me. I now see her as more of a tool than a person, and as a tool, her goodness or evil are that of her wielders.

Prior to that revelation, though, every interaction with her in-game was positive, and all who knew her had only good things to say about her. Our window into the Garleans, on the other hand, was an unending laundry list of atrocities, not-much assuaged by the revelation that a small handful of Garlean leaders COULD act in a self-interestedly reasonable manner, if they grit their teeth and tried really, really hard.

[Absimiliard]

This may be true - but the game gives us a lot more reasons to sympathize with Hydaelyn than it does with Garlemald! Pro-Garlean folks have to dig a LOT deeper to support their preference - and have to dig mighty deep to take shots at Hydaelyn, as well!

Or used to, anyway - the revelation that Hydaelyn is a Primal, as well as suspicions of her role in the Sundering, were mighty blows against the assumption of her goodness, at least for me. I now see her as more of a tool than a person, and as a tool, her goodness or evil are that of her wielders.

To a point, anyway. We do at least know there is a portion of the Garlean population that does not support the way things have been conducted. We've even been shown a few defectors that are legitimately remorseful of their actions as well as those of their former compatriots, though some others certainly did defect just to save their own skins. We've also learned that even Varis, for all his grave mental instability, had a limit: Zenos was far too crazy, and he was worried about what would happen if the boy ever got the throne. This is why he never had any intention of allowing his sociopath offspring to become Emperor.

In any case, one can argue the Garlean point of view without necessarily being a supporter. I find their Empire and physiological as well as psychological characteristics to be very interesting on a number of levels, but I suppose I wouldn't exactly qualify as one of the Pro-Garlean people you're probably referring to - at least not in the conventional sense.

[LineageRazor]

Missed this one, when I posted yesterday:

In other words, Bahamut and Enkidu.

Actually, Bahamut does NOT resemble the original. His only resemblance to his counterpart in the artwork of Midgardsormr's brood is the horns, and this is one of the reasons that Tiamat knew immediately that the Ascians had deceived her.

As for Enkidu... We don't really know if he looked like the original or not. The only one who knows for sure is Gilgamesh, and this is a guy who thought that painting a chicken green was a suitable substitute! He probably took one look at the Enkidu he'd summoned, and figured he was good enough! (And no, the fact that he resembles the FFV artwork, is not something I consider to be a compelling counterargument.)

As shown by our summons in the Eden raids, even knowing the original is not enough to guarantee an accurate copy...

[Daralii]

Missed this one, when I posted yesterday:


Actually, Bahamut does NOT resemble the original. His only resemblance to his counterpart in the artwork of Midgardsormr's brood is the horns, and this is one of the reasons that Tiamat knew immediately that the Ascians had deceived her.

As for Enkidu... We don't really know if he looked like the original or not. The only one who knows for sure is Gilgamesh, and this is a guy who thought that painting a chicken green was a suitable substitute! He probably took one look at the Enkidu he'd summoned, and figured he was good enough! (And no, the fact that he resembles the FFV artwork, is not something I consider to be a compelling counterargument.)

As shown by our summons in the Eden raids, even knowing the original is not enough to guarantee an accurate copy...

Tiamat probably also knew Bahamut better than anyone else in the world, being both his mate and sister, and the summoning still created a twisted monster. Any stray thought, any error in memory, and any emotional charge causes the process to go awry.

[Theodric]

This may be true - but the game gives us a lot more reasons to sympathize with Hydaelyn than it does with Garlemald! Pro-Garlean folks have to dig a LOT deeper to support their preference - and have to dig mighty deep to take shots at Hydaelyn, as well!

I don't believe that to be the case at all, since neither faction is owed any sympathy outright and whether they get it is very much based on personal preferences. I tend to be drawn to the antagonists more than the protagonists in pretty much any game like this since, to me, they provide more food for thought. Others may disagree with the assessment that they have more depth, but that's the thing - a lot of the debates on this forum are less about the lore itself and more about personal interpretations of it.

It really is just the equivalent of whether or not someone prefers pineapple as a topping on a pizza.

[Absimiliard]

It really is just the equivalent of whether or not someone prefers pineapple as a topping on a pizza.

Speak not those words of evil.

[Theodric]

Speak not those words of evil.

Fine. Egg, then!

[QT_Melon]

I always think of summoning primals as a game of "Wish Corruption" sure you get something of what you want, but there is a twist or a price you didn't expect.

That's why Bahamut wasn't the Bahamut that Tiamat wanted for example, but also depending on one's emotional state since even the Ancients aren't perfect with creation magic.

Even at our current state, we who may have been one to summon Hydaelyn is now summoning Leviathan with 2 heads and Titan as the wheeled warrior.