Something about the new Ascian lore

[Theodric]

Not every story needs to have shades of grey, no. Though let's not beat around the bush - quite a lot of people around these parts are as biased towards Hydaelyn as I am towards Garlemald.

[YianKutku]

Then as far as summoners go the dialog mentions multiple people in the form of "they". Then you have the cave mural paintings.

Tangentially, something I found interesting about the cave murals is that Hydaelyn and Zodiark were represented by the humanoid winged figures with crossed arms, which is similar to the "elementals" model used in game (in Eureka, and I think in 1.0).

This same humanoid shape is seen in various Ascian locales, like their Organization XIII throne area, and in Hades' staff. So it's clearly significant to them in some form.

However, we also see statues of that same humanoid winged shape (with the crossed arms pose) in Akademia Anyder, where they're just part of the statuary. And Akademia Anyder is implied to be a recreated simulation from before Zodiark.

So I'm beginning to wonder how literal the cave mural paintings are, or if they are somehow symbolic and not meant to be taken literally.

I think this is the relevant distinction, though. Many people in general (and by extension the FFXIV player base) are not big fans of gray morality or darkness in the media they consume. They don’t want the characters they’ve become attached to to do bad things or to suffer too much. But some people (including me) do like these kinds of stories for various reasons.

Personally, I only prefer grey storytelling if the opposing sides are brought up, rather than down. There's already a lot of "everyone does horrible things, and your only choice is which flavour of horrible repulses you least" stories around. I much prefer "we all have excellent points, and none of us need to do morally dubious things to achieve them, and the only difference boils down to personal preference".

I don't want the moral relativity that Emet-Selch proposes, where he considers sapient beings "not alive", or at least not worth the same "life" as his standards. That way leads to uncomfortable implications of "lesser races" and justifying genocide. If he were to change his mind and realize that everyone is "alive", that would have been one thing, but instead he refused to do so.

EDIT: Literally just now (as in in the past few minutes), at the GamesCom panel, Banri Oda explained that the cave mural paintings were created by someone on the First who saw the scenes in a dream.

[Theodric]

I prefer a story as in-depth and as ongoing as this one to have a broad range of moral viewpoints and dilemmas to explore. Emet-Selch is not a 'human', thus he need not adhere to human values and morality in order to have a point or be interesting. It is not any different to how Nidhogg saw things differently by virtue of being the equivalent of an alien. Both needed to be stopped from the perspective of the player character and their allies, though that doesn't mean that they were lacking in justifications according to their own brand of morality.

I absolutely loathe how Emet-Selch manipulated Garlemald and then plunged its already tormented people into chaos, yet that doesn't mean I can't bring myself to sympathise with his own plight. I found him to be quite entertaining.

[QT_Melon]

Tangentially, something I found interesting about the cave murals is that Hydaelyn and Zodiark were represented by the humanoid winged figures with crossed arms, which is similar to the "elementals" model used in game (in Eureka, and I think in 1.0).

EDIT: Literally just now (as in in the past few minutes), at the GamesCom panel, Banri Oda explained that the cave mural paintings were created by someone on the First who saw the scenes in a dream.

It's also the box art.



It was something I was asking about before like while the Ancients were long lived and could do creation magic, was there an evolution of their species? Was their ability to utilize creation magic something that was always strong or did it become more refined. It's something that would make sense on an evolutionary level that when they finally had more control of it, something happened that caused the sound and eventual collapse of their race.

Honestly wouldn't be surprised if their culture had certain perceptions of the world and own symbols that when they made the wills, it would be conceived from those ideas. I mean have we yet to see an "accurate" primal? Wasn't each primal basically a thoughtform of something based on a perception? (Even if the one they're basing it from actually existed at one point?).

The revelation of it being drawn from a dream isn't that surprising either - since the question was asked who was around to create that painting on the first if we were all sundered anyways? So what it sounds like to me is that if the person had the dream it could have very well been Echo. Especially if you look at the detail of the painting where you see the White robed figure(s) underneath Zodiark.

[Absimiliard]

Honestly wouldn't be surprised if their culture had certain perceptions of the world and own symbols that when they made the wills, it would be conceived from those ideas. I mean have we yet to see an "accurate" primal? Wasn't each primal basically a thoughtform of something based on a perception? (Even if the one they're basing it from actually existed at one point?).

Primals are essentially thoughtforms, yes. Their appearances, abilities, and personalities are informed by the thoughts and feelings of their summoner(s) at the time of creation. No doubt primals such as Titan, Ifrit, and Garuda looked much different when they were originally conceived of versus what we actually encountered in-game. Perceptions change with time, after all.

The revelation of it being drawn from a dream isn't that surprising either - since the question was asked who was around to create that painting on the first if we were all sundered anyways? So what it sounds like to me is that if the person had the dream it could have very well been Echo. Especially if you look at the detail of the painting where you see the White robed figure(s) underneath Zodiark.

People have a tendency to recall things in dreams that their conscious mind has long since lost the ability to access. While it could have been the Echo, it could also have been lingering fragments of memory from the painter's original self.

[YianKutku]

Honestly wouldn't be surprised if their culture had certain perceptions of the world and own symbols that when they made the wills, it would be conceived from those ideas. I mean have we yet to see an "accurate" primal? Wasn't each primal basically a thoughtform of something based on a perception? (Even if the one they're basing it from actually existed at one point?).

Primals are indeed based on what their summoners think they should look like, yes. I would assume, based on circumstantial evidence, that the only "accurate" Primals we see are mostly the ones who were summoned when their summoner personally knew the original. In other words, Bahamut and Enkidu. (And technically "original" Primals like Alexander and Shinryu, but those don't count for the purposes of the question.)

Also Odin, or more precisely Zantetsuken. I haven't finished Eureka, so I don't know the full details of that.

[Daralii]

Then as far as summoners go the dialog mentions multiple people in the form of "they". Then you have the cave mural paintings.

We could take the theory that the life force was in account, but not the souls. Let's say since the Ancients can see souls that people who had given up their life force - may have given them the idea to sacrifice the mortal life force to bring their loved ones back? I mean it's an interesting trait that the Ancients can see the soul - so for those that lived for eternity may have been able to see a soul transcend after the lifeforce is gone?
?

It's apparently a pretty simple process to see the color of someone's soul, to the point that it's just part of one of the Alchemist storylines. Ancients can obviously see it without the need of alchemy and can probably better distinguish the hue, but it shouldn't be any more complex than Y'shtola's eyes after she used Flow the first time.

[YianKutku]

It's apparently a pretty simple process to see the color of someone's soul, to the point that it's just part of one of the Alchemist storylines. Ancients can obviously see it without the need of alchemy and can probably better distinguish the hue, but it shouldn't be any more complex than Y'shtola's eyes after she used Flow the first time.

The ALC questline in question was about seeing the colour of someone's aether, which I've always assumed to be relevant to the colour of someone's soul before, but with the new information about souls and Ancients I'm less sure now.

Also it was done through what was apparently the aether version of Luminol, so I'm not entirely certain if it's the "true colour" or if it's the colour as indicated by that specific alchemical concoction.

But Y'shtola does prove that it is very possible to recognize individuals through their aether as seen through aether-sight, as well as how aether shenanigans could make someone's aether unrecognizable.

[QT_Melon]

People have a tendency to recall things in dreams that their conscious mind has long since lost the ability to access. While it could have been the Echo, it could also have been lingering fragments of memory from the painter's original self.

Which is fine, but HAS anyone to date in this game been able to recall past memories other than those WITH Echo? I thought that was part of the nature of Echo itself.

[Belhi]

It's apparently a pretty simple process to see the color of someone's soul, to the point that it's just part of one of the Alchemist storylines. Ancients can obviously see it without the need of alchemy and can probably better distinguish the hue, but it shouldn't be any more complex than Y'shtola's eyes after she used Flow the first time.

Worth mentioning some Amroo can see a person's soul which is why Seto mistook us for Ardbert when we first met him.

Also Odin, or more precisely Zantetsuken. I haven't finished Eureka, so I don't know the full details of that.

Odin is a kind of special case which is explained in Eureka so I probably shouldn't spoil it for you. Needless to say, in his case the original Warrior Odin's thoughtform probably defined what the Dark Divinity ended up being like.