Warrior and Dark Knight's Predicament

[shao32]

I just want DRK to feel like it’s own job again. Haven’t really had that feeling since HW.

DRK is a BLU in disguise.

[Satarn]

I thought Passage of Arms was hot garbage for the longest time (you can't move or attack or anything! what's the point?!).

Little tip - you can actually weave PoA between gcds and cancel immediately, while still applying the 5 second mitigation buff to anyone who was in range, which is perfectly fine for raid busters(same duration as Reprisal). It requires people to be already stacked behind you, but lets you use PoA without sacrificing any dps and any decent group should be stacking for heals during raidwides anyways. AST's collective Unconscious works the same way, except the Fortune Wheel regen actually gets full duration regardless.

[waterboytkd]

As happy as that would make me, that's busted beyond belief. The duality of TBN means it can never be DPS positive, or it must be a negligible amount of positive value. That's a disgustingly high potency boost.

Not disagreeing with you, as I don't know the math here: but do we know what % of our damage comes from Dark Arts'd Edges/Floods? At most, it's one every 15s. Realistically, it's probably closer to every 20-25s (as you need to wait to use TBN when you know it'll get broken). Checking FFLogs (and I might be doing it wrong here), looking at an E1S and E4S with a DRK in it, the DRK only cast TBN 4 times and 2 times, respectively. So in E1S, that was 4 out of 19 Edges + 7 Floods, or 4 out 26 attacks. In E4S it was 2 out of 41 Edges + 4 Floods, or 2 out of 45.

Given that a Crit is somewhere around 55-60% buff, and a DHit is a 25% buff, a Crit DHit is ~100% buff. But if you're only looking at anywhere from 2% to 16% of your Edges/Floods having Dark Arts, and Edges + Floods make up 13-15% of total damage in those two fights, you could be looking at something as low as a .26% increase in dps, up to a 2.4% increase in dps (overall).

My math here is pretty fast, so it could easily be off. But a 2.4% buff to dps isn't insane, right? Or is it?

[DJMau]

Not disagreeing with you, as I don't know the math here: but do we know what % of our damage comes from Dark Arts'd Edges/Floods? At most, it's one every 15s. Realistically, it's probably closer to every 20-25s (as you need to wait to use TBN when you know it'll get broken). Checking FFLogs (and I might be doing it wrong here), looking at an E1S and E4S with a DRK in it, the DRK only cast TBN 4 times and 2 times, respectively. So in E1S, that was 4 out of 19 Edges + 7 Floods, or 4 out 26 attacks. In E4S it was 2 out of 41 Edges + 4 Floods, or 2 out of 45.

Given that a Crit is somewhere around 55-60% buff, and a DHit is a 25% buff, a Crit DHit is ~100% buff. But if you're only looking at anywhere from 2% to 16% of your Edges/Floods having Dark Arts, and Edges + Floods make up 13-15% of total damage in those two fights, you could be looking at something as low as a .26% increase in dps, up to a 2.4% increase in dps (overall).

My math here is pretty fast, so it could easily be off. But a 2.4% buff to dps isn't insane, right? Or is it?

Sounds like DRK was an off tank. Any info on fights where DRK was main tanking?

[Absimiliard]

I question why the DRK would only be using TBN four times. There are numerous mechanics capable of breaking the bubble. It's even easier as MT because you have autos to help wear it down. It isn't something to be reserved only for tankbusters and emergencies. You should be using it whenever doing so won't be a DPS loss and you won't need it for something else during its cooldown.

[waterboytkd]

I question why the DRK would only be using TBN four times. There are numerous mechanics capable of breaking the bubble. It's even easier as MT because you have autos to help wear it down. It isn't something to be reserved only for tankbusters and emergencies. You should be using it whenever doing so won't be a DPS loss and you won't need it for something else during its cooldown.

That was my thought as well, but I haven't done the savage raids yet. I'll ping The Balance discord, though, and see if anyone has some better numbers.

EDIT: so after talking with the folks on The Balance discord, there's not really a set number of TBNs you'll really see. There are some attacks you'll want to use it on every time (ie Tank Busters), but there's a number of times you *could* use it, and it'll break, but it doesn't really serve much of a purpose. This could be because it's raid-wide damage, and healers are gonna have to pop raid-wide heals anyways, so you'd just be forcing overheal numbers. Situations like that don't cost the DRK anything, per se.

So that's the reason you might see such low number of TBNs. Those are the only vital attacks to shield against? And since you don't gain anything from using TBN to gain DA as opposed to just using Edge/Flood (outside of damage mitigation, which might be moot if your healer is doing raid wide healing anyway), it would just be easier to "sit on it" until you truly need it.

Which is another facet to buffing Dark Arts to give some kind of damage bonus, like auto crit/dhit. It would encourage using TBN as much as possible to boost your dps, as opposed to using it strictly as a defensive cooldown. Which isn't necessarily a good thing?

[Argyle_Darkheart]

You can't really extrapolate from the current number of TBN uses. If TBN was DPS positive, especially to the extent that you're suggesting, then the number of uses would be far, far greater.

[Kabooa]

Not disagreeing with you, as I don't know the math here: but do we know what % of our damage comes from Dark Arts'd Edges/Floods? At most, it's one every 15s. Realistically, it's probably closer to every 20-25s (as you need to wait to use TBN when you know it'll get broken). Checking FFLogs (and I might be doing it wrong here), looking at an E1S and E4S with a DRK in it, the DRK only cast TBN 4 times and 2 times, respectively. So in E1S, that was 4 out of 19 Edges + 7 Floods, or 4 out 26 attacks. In E4S it was 2 out of 41 Edges + 4 Floods, or 2 out of 45.

Given that a Crit is somewhere around 55-60% buff, and a DHit is a 25% buff, a Crit DHit is ~100% buff. But if you're only looking at anywhere from 2% to 16% of your Edges/Floods having Dark Arts, and Edges + Floods make up 13-15% of total damage in those two fights, you could be looking at something as low as a .26% increase in dps, up to a 2.4% increase in dps (overall).

My math here is pretty fast, so it could easily be off. But a 2.4% buff to dps isn't insane, right? Or is it?

Just using my numbers and assuming only 2 TBNs, it's an extra 20,000 damage / minute, or around 333 DPS. This is i450, cheap melded crafted gear. If by some...ungodly manipulation you could get all 4 per minute, that's 666 DPS, or comparatively, around +10-11% of my theoretical damage.

Again, I iterate I'd be pretty okay with this as I am rather fond of Dark Knight. Not being like, mean or anything.

It's just disgusting in the best way possible.

Accounting for my baseline crit rating, closer to 9% or so.

More than enough to oust that Gunbreaker.

[waterboytkd]

You can't really extrapolate from the current number of TBN uses. If TBN was DPS positive, especially to the extent that you're suggesting, then the number of uses would be far, far greater.

I edited my previous post with what I got from The Balance folks. Your point was more or less where I ended up, as well. Right now, TBN uses can vary, largely because there's a number of times it can be used but it doesn't need to be used. Make it a dps gain, though, and people will be using at damn near on cooldown (as long as they know it'll break).

[Quor]

I edited my previous post with what I got from The Balance folks. Your point was more or less where I ended up, as well. Right now, TBN uses can vary, largely because there's a number of times it can be used but it doesn't need to be used. Make it a dps gain, though, and people will be using at damn near on cooldown (as long as they know it'll break).

As it stands now, appropriate TBN use is a dps gain *if* you're using it in a way that saves a healer GCD or two. A practical place you'd see this would be in ES1 during paradise regained for prey targets that get passed to dps, or ES2 for the Hell Wind+tower combo on a dps. It can also save a GCD for healing the MT of you're OT.

I'd like there to be a reward instead of simply resource neutral when TBN breaks, but it can't be as insane as an auto crit or direct crit. A small potency increase or perhaps mana cost reduction on the next Edge/Flood, something more indirect but still meaningful. Maybe 10% more potency, or the next Edge/Flood after DA is consumed have half cost.