Warrior and Dark Knight's Predicament

[Satarn]

Personally I'd prefer it if they just deleted Raw Intuition and have NF that give the 10% damage reduction and % healing to whomever it is used on. This way War can choose to target ourselves, emphasize the main gimmick that makes half of War's mitigation unique and make it so War doesn't feel so dang squishy b4 76.

Does it mean that we can't heal both ourselves and our Co-tank at the same time? Sure, but I'm sure that many War mains would be more than happy to accept this slight nerf.

How is removing a 20% mitigation skill to let you use a 10% mitigation on yourself gonna make you less squishy? The great thing about Nascent/RI is that you get a choice - if you need extra mitigation to survive a buster you use RI, otherwise you can just use Nascent to heal both yourself and your co-tank. What you're proposing isn't a "slight nerf to utility for a personal buff", it's a pretty big nerf to utility and personal mitigation just to fix a minor annoyance with targeting.

If you feel squishy before 76 then you're doing something wrong, you already get Rampart, Thrill(now with a healing bonus), Vengeance, Raw Intuition, Equilibrium and Holmgang - use them.

[Greywolfamakir]

Like i said 2 pages ago, all four tanks are currently pretty close in terms of balance. They're not perfect, they'll never be perfect.

DRK doesn't need more CDs, TBN is strong enough and 15s CD.

PLD's Clemency sounds good right? sure, but PLD loses DPS every time he uses Clemency, its the only tank exchanging DPS for Healing.

GNB is more something like a "DPS's gameplay into a Tank" with really good CDs (Heart of Stone is amazing).

I dont play Warrior this expansion.

I dont really care what tank is better at level 69...I play level 80 content.

At the end, all good tank players agree with the current nice Balance between tanks, so THANK YOU SQUARE ENIX FOR CURRENT BALANCE BETWEEN TANKS IN SHADOWBRINGERS

[Marc-Vigar]

Not to put words in your mouth, but if the game is such that we could play any tank in a given fight and be fine, is this not a good thing?
It sounds more like the issue, if there was one, would be a lack of difference between the tanks, which is another issue entirely.

Of course that's good, I never said otherwise. My point was about TBN not being "free" and the high risk, high reward tradeoff compared to its counterparts from other tanks.

[Absimiliard]

Of course that's good, I never said otherwise. My point was about TBN not being "free" and the high risk, high reward tradeoff compared to its counterparts from other tanks.

TBN is also absurdly powerful. They would probably nerf it into the ground they lessened the risk side of the equation.

[Izsha]

So many false comparisons and cherry picking in this thread. Op talks about dps and utility and ignires personal defenses and immunities. War and drk easily outstrip pld and gun in personal cooldowns in endgame content for example, yet was entirely ignored. Comparing raw numbers of actions (gun has 3 drk has 2 oh noes!) Is always silly without including the POWER and frequency of those actions. Just tallyinh up ability bames on a spreadsheet and declaring winner/looser is a horribly bad way to compare jobs with far more nuance than that.


Fact: tank dps is the most balanced it has ever been and doing it with the most tanks the game has ever had at that. Can balance get better? Sure.but true parity will never exist unless they are identical.

Fact: party utility is also the most balanced its ever been. No longer does tbn compete against sio compete against veil/cover/passage/cures. Pld has more, but longer cds. Drk has less but they are strong with short cds. War middling etc.

Personal mitigation is reasonably close between tanks. Far closer than before. You have asymmetric balance between the job specific mitigation (DM, tob, camo, shield passive), but even thise are of similar power levels, but their functions/niches are a bit different. Even the imminities are closer with the holmgange timer nerf, though this area is where tanks are the farthest apart.

Taken together tanks are the most balanced they have ever been. Furthermore, this is arguably one of the most balanced tank lines in mmo history and im not exaggerating. Its really, really good right now accross the board.

[waterboytkd]

There's always going to be a "last place" in terms of parsing. From what I understand, though, DRK (last place) and GNB (first place) are within a very small window. The difference is less than 5%? There is no dire need to buff the lower performers.

As far as utility, TBN is so powerful, it makes up for missing an extra button. This ability is just bonkers. As a PLD main (with a DRK almost 80), there's nothing like TBN.

That said, if SE decided a dps buff for DRK was warranted, I think a fun buff would be to Dark Arts: make it so the next Edge/Flood is 0 MP *and* is an automatic critical/direct hit.

For a utility buff to DRK, the only thing I'd like to see is Living Dead get tweaked. It has its use (you put it up, but it doesn't "start" until you would die, so you can kind of guarantee a full 10s of invuln time), but the fact that it kills you if a healer in your party doesn't fully understand how it functions is pretty feelsbadman. Maybe change the drawback to something less drastic than dying? Or remove the drawback, but change the "invuln" to a damage stagger (you take a % of the total damage dealt to you, but as a DoT over time)? Or maybe at the end of Walking Dead, you simply take X damage. It could be a % of your max health? Something you can mitigate, though, via TBN (or even Dark Mind, if it's spell damage). I'm just spit-balling ideas at this point.

[Sancho_Nyanta]

How is removing a 20% mitigation skill to let you use a 10% mitigation on yourself gonna make you less squishy? The great thing about Nascent/RI is that you get a choice - if you need extra mitigation to survive a buster you use RI, otherwise you can just use Nascent to heal both yourself and your co-tank. What you're proposing isn't a "slight nerf to utility for a personal buff", it's a pretty big nerf to utility and personal mitigation just to fix a minor annoyance with targeting.

If you feel squishy before 76 then you're doing something wrong, you already get Rampart, Thrill(now with a healing bonus), Vengeance, Raw Intuition, Equilibrium and Holmgang - use them.

You don't get the healing bonus on Thrill till 78 (we are talking about b4 76). I can't talk to how War feels at that point b/c I'm still only 77.

Also, Holmgang doesn't help with the Squishy feeling. It helps with survival and these are very different things. I have no problem with survival on War but feeling like my HP plummets like a stone is something that I noticed. Maybe I'm just spoiled by the OP nature of TBN the people complain about for whatever reason.

Since getting NF I haven't even touched Raw Intuition in dungeons (the only content I'm able to do right now). Basically I am able to pull the whole horde of mobs and then when my HP gets low I just pop NF and hit 3 Inner Chaos/Decimate and then I'm topped off. Other War mains I've talked to have done similarly. This isn't just trade 20% for 10%. This would boost NF to have the 10% on the skill for yourself while also letting you heal for 50% of the damage dealt. Being able to heal both is not all that valuable as you can already heal yourself with Equilibrium and Thrill. However, this does add a lot of healing that you can do for your co-tank. Are you sure that this would be considered a nerf?

[Satarn]

Also, Holmgang doesn't help with the Squishy feeling. It helps with survival and these are very different things. I have no problem with survival on War but feeling like my HP plummets like a stone is something that I noticed.

By that logic Nascent doesn't help either - your hp will still drop, you just get a tool to bounce it back up and if you're using Nascent while you're still high on HP then you're just wasting the massive healing it provides on overheals.
Using Holmgang on big pulls lets you and your healer save cds until you actually drop very low, use Holmgang and then you can use a cd to heal up and lightly mitigate if you still need some time to finish off the pull.

Since getting NF I haven't even touched Raw Intuition in dungeons (...) However, this does add a lot of healing that you can do for your co-tank. Are you sure that this would be considered a nerf?

How does it add healing? It removes healing if it only works on a single target instead of both target and you. Right now you can toss Nascent on your co-tank and you both get healed, which is great for any situation when you both take dmg, like the very common this tier double TBs, bleeds in e1s or double autos in e3s. With your version only you or the other tank gets healed, that's literally half the total healing you get right now. There's no gain in this other than if you're using it on yourself you're also getting 10% mitigation.

However you also want to remove RI which already does a way better job of helping you survive TBs than 10%+ healing on Nascent would do. Healing is great for sustained damage or recovering after you've already lived, but sometimes you need the mitigaiton first to actually survive - this is literally the issue of 2.0 WAR where they didn't have enough damage reduction for TBs in some cases and all their self healing didn't do jack to help that. Having both Nascent and RI to choose based on what you need is a clever way to avoid this issue without making WAR cd kit too overpowered.

Yes, Nascent is better for trash pulls and autos when paired with burst, but you can already use it for those things and it's not needed in lower level content, while RI is better for when you need extra mitigation for a heavy hit.
Right now we have a choice between two CDs which do their respective jobs greatly - you want to fuse them into one CD that's meh at both.

[Kabooa]

hat said, if SE decided a dps buff for DRK was warranted, I think a fun buff would be to Dark Arts: make it so the next Edge/Flood is 0 MP *and* is an automatic critical/direct hit.

As happy as that would make me, that's busted beyond belief. The duality of TBN means it can never be DPS positive, or it must be a negligible amount of positive value. That's a disgustingly high potency boost.

[waterboytkd]

Since getting NF I haven't even touched Raw Intuition in dungeons (the only content I'm able to do right now).

I haven't played Warrior much yet, but this sounds about right. NF seems much better for healing through big pulls and "mitigating" fluff damage. RI is going to be crucial, though, in raids (and even some level 80 dungeon bosses) for dealing with the tank busters. Halving that to 10% (if NF could be cast on self for self-Glinting) is a pretty significant drop in self-mitigation for that content.

It's okay, though, to have abilities that excel in certain content vs others. As a PLD main and relatively new player (started in Feb this year), I didn't really get a chance to get into endgame stuff in SB. ShB has been my first chance. I thought Passage of Arms was hot garbage for the longest time (you can't move or attack or anything! what's the point?!). Then I started doing endgame stuff, where it's common for bosses to use party/raid-wide unavoidable attacks, and suddenly I wished PoA had half the cooldown I find it so useful.

PLD is a bit like this, too, with Sheltron and Intervention. They feel like "half of a whole ability" each. The "whole ability," in this case, is The Blackest Night. You're a DRK. You know how awesome that ability is.