Can we talk about how mnk, drg, and blm are blatantly overpowered right now?

[Aomine1992]

I don't hit like buttons.

How many times are we going to do this song and dance? Things aren't perfect, they can be better. I'm not inconsistent on this point. But they aren't as bad as people make them out to be.

It might be a little bit of hyperbole to say "everything is fine" but it's no less, perhaps even more damning, to spout "This is the worst state it's ever been in", either specific to job or overall.

This is the worse it’s ever been....not like when BLM was less then 500 behind SMN (which should have been the other way around), or RDM being less then 800 behind but now we have literally 1k+ between top jobs and lower jobs. You don’t see that as bad is just ludicrous in itself. All you have to do is look at logs...this difference between lower and higher dps are huge. Yes I agree it’s about player performance but at the same time the job design itself has to compliment that. This is bad design no matter how you spin it. Now I agree with you on some of your points but other BLMs make me a little sick like they didn’t just suffer from this same problem yesterday!!

[dinnertime]

The whiny manchild behavior was entertaining I have to admit, but honestly the balance of the DPS jobs right now is not okay. This isn't "boohoo BLM does 20-500 less DPS than SMN how sad :[" like in HW and early SB, there's a huge 1k-2k gap between the highest 4 DPS compared to the rest. Apparently It's bad that you can't clear some savage tiers with just any comp. This is a lot more than BLM's past problem.

[AikenDrum]

If you can do better than your main on a job that you buy a job potion for, afk-level with trust to 80, then try for two evenings while failing horribly in a spectacular way - i'd say it is as bad as they make it out to be ^^ "Get better"? Why? I get better results with getting worse ><

[Kabooa]

when Double WHM, and Double BLM are completely viable compositions while excluding 2 whole healers and and entire Role for 1 job, not ever the other 2 casters, then we have a problem and it's pretty bad. It's not the worst job balance in any mmo ever, but it's bad. This song and dance ends when you guys stop telling SMN, RDMs, BRDs, MCHs, and DNCs, that taking 2 BLMs over any of them is not that bad. Stop playing devils advocate and i can assure you, this all stops. MNK BLM and DRG are BLATANTLY overpowered in some of the worst ways and WHM is just as big of an offender. Tanks are the only role they got right this expac even if WARs and DRKs would like more, the 4 of them are so close that there isn't that much of a difference for it to be a huge priority

White Mage has about a 5% lead on Astro, and that's 'just as big an offender'?

Yet Gunbreaker has near a 5% lead on Dark Knight, and that's 'getting it right'?

On Titan, these both drop down to 3%. These are simultaneously Big offenders and Just right to you.

Oh, it must be a deficit in healing capability.

But Astro can solo heal Titan, so that can't be it.

Do you see the problem here? You're saying I'm playing devil's advocate, but the fact of the matter is that !@#% isn't adding up.

The claim "You can't do it week 1 without these jobs" is false, because people have, or enough examples of players across the spectrum exist that show it is possible.

The claim "Balance for the tanks is great but the healers is bad" is questionable, because they're near identical with one glaring difference (Living Dead and Benediction).

So what should we be aiming for? Should we be aiming for balance like among the tanks where they got it right?

Because that lands us in balance like there is among healers, and that's where "White mage is just as big an offender."

Which is it?

This is the worse it’s ever been....not like when BLM was less then 500 behind SMN (which should have been the other way around), or RDM being less then 800 behind but now we have literally 1k+ between top jobs and lower jobs. You don’t see that as bad is just ludicrous in itself. All you have to do is look at logs...this difference between lower and higher dps are huge. Yes I agree it’s about player performance but at the same time the job design itself has to compliment that. This is bad design no matter how you spin it. Now I agree with you on some of your points but other BLMs make me a little sick like they didn’t just suffer from this same problem yesterday!!

Sorry friend, you're getting an edit response, because it looks like I'll be hitting my cap early today.

DPS inflation for the jobs is about 60-70%. This means if you had a 500-600 difference before, the expected value would be 850-1000 difference.

Unfortunately, those prior numbers were PDPS ranked and the App that parsed log data to convert it is now built in, so the individual app (and thus older logs) are no longer supported. Theoretical guess work is our best attempt in this regard, but setting a few baselines (Like a hardline -5% on 'pure jobs' like Samurai and Black Mage) and using unchanged modifiers to try and establish a baseline (Red mage's Embolden hasn't changed, and right now is about +2-3% to their score), we can look back and try and get an idea of where things stood.

I don't like kneejerk number twiddling. I didn't like it for Black Mage in Stormblood, I don't like it now.

One of the bigger offenses right now is core problems that need addressing. After that is addressed, then potency boosts. In Stormblood there was very little for Black Mage's core problems - The rotation was intuitive, with flexible adjustments, Triple Cast rounded out the mobility kit to a near perfect level, there was certainly nothing wrong with Black Mage's -feel-. The core problem was that they brought nothing to the party. There were several ways to deal with this, and we see which one they chose.

From what I can gather, there are plenty of core problems with Red Mage and Ninja, some with Summoner, the ever present one for Samurai, a few rotational ones with machinist, and Bard.

We need only our current situation to examine why this approach would work better. Again, Black mage's core problem was it brought nothing to the party. What did they do?

Potency boosts.

In Shdaowbringers, they...went the opposite direction to solving that core problem and removed some of the extras other jobs brought. So now we sit here with a lap full of potency boosts and a more equitable supplementary kit in relation to others. (Nothing to almost nothing)

It might sound like I'm defending the 2 month old status quo, but the reality is that it's just a better method to fix the problems, examine how that affects people, and after that, then adjust potency.

[Wayfinder3]

White Mage has about a 5% lead on Astro, and that's 'just as big an offender'?

Yet Gunbreaker has near a 5% lead on Dark Knight, and that's 'getting it right'?

On Titan, these both drop down to 3%. These are simultaneously Big offenders and Just right to you.

Oh, it must be a deficit in healing capability.

But Astro can solo heal Titan, so that can't be it.

Do you see the problem here? You're saying I'm playing devil's advocate, but the fact of the matter is that !@#% isn't adding up.

The claim "You can't do it week 1 without these jobs" is false, because people have, or enough examples of players across the spectrum exist that show it is possible.

The claim "Balance for the tanks is great but the healers is bad" is questionable, because they're near identical with one glaring difference (Living Dead and Benediction).

So what should we be aiming for? Should we be aiming for balance like among the tanks where they got it right?

Because that lands us in balance like there is among healers, and that's where "White mage is just as big an offender."

Which is it?

On Titan, WHM and AST rdps issue stems from the fact that AST is objectively more complex to play and as an absurd amount of layers do to the nature of it's new card system. WHM doesn't have this issue which puts AST in a position similar to NIN where they're trying so hard to just be worse than Glare spam making that 5% completely unfair. GNB is actually a little under 3% stronger than DRK which is less than the difference between WHM and AST while, RDM/MCH and BLM is about a 13% difference. MCH is a pure dps too like BLM btw.

AST can solo heal titan, not like they had 5 dps, 2 Addles, 1 Shield Samba, 1 Improv, 1, Mantra, 2 reprisals, 2 Tank invulns, 2 Tank Shields and an Extra dps which means a Huge extra chunk of damage, and Titan Maximum does like no damage until orogenisis in the end. So yeah, AST is perfectly fine and this instance proves it >.>

Tank Balance is better than healer balance, the difference between the lowest tank Warrior and the top Gunbreaker, is about 3% which is better than the roughly 5% difference of healers and the effort placed between the top healer and the bottom one. both are no where near as bad as DPS

[Kabooa]

On Titan, WHM and AST rdps issue stems from the fact that AST is objectively more complex to play and as an absurd amount of layers do to the nature of it's new card system. WHM doesn't have this issue which puts AST in a position similar to NIN where they're trying so hard to just be worse than Glare spam making that 5% completely unfair. GNB is actually a little under 3% stronger than DRK which is less than the difference between WHM and AST while, RDM/MCH and BLM is about a 13% difference. MCH is a pure dps too like BLM btw.

AST can solo heal titan, not like they had 5 dps, 2 Addles, 1 Shield Samba, 1 Improv, 1, Mantra, 2 reprisals, 2 Tank invulns, 2 Tank Shields and an Extra dps which means a Huge extra chunk of damage, and Titan Maximum does like no damage until orogenisis in the end. So yeah, AST is perfectly fine and this instance proves it >.>

Tank Balance is better than healer balance, the difference between the lowest tank Warrior and the top Gunbreaker, is about 3% which is better than the roughly 5% difference of healers and the effort placed between the top healer and the bottom one. both are no where near as bad as DPS

So job difficulty needs to be taken into account now?

Sure you want to open that can of worms?

Also - much as I enjoy the tanks this time around, there's no denying that the difference between them all is fairly shallow. They have sacrificed a modicum of job diversity for the state they are in. This might not have been necessary, as there are certainly examples of job diversity with fairly even strength all around (Guild Wars 1, you were too pure for this world), but that isn't this game.

If you want the within 3-5% ratio, you have to lose something. What are you willing to lose? Do you speak for everyone? This isn't even about buffs - its just as much about nerfing the "overpowered" jobs down to your level. What do you lose?

What should they lose?

Should some of them even lose anything? Do they have anything to lose?

How would you go about this?

I have little issue with job adjustments. I have fairly significant concerns on blind potency requests. Blind "We need another 1000 dps" requests.

[Vendalwind]

Just saying job difficulty should always be taken into account. This idea that for some reason that subject shouldnt be broached is idiotic. The Balance of the game, should not be defined by difficulty no, but higher difficulty typically means higher variance and by very nature places the skill gaps of a class more widespread in terms of output.

I personally think higher difficulty should be rewarded, but extreeeeeemely slightly. And more like the reward should come in the form of having extremely similar numbers but having that difficulty allow perfect plays to excel. In fact exactly like BLM currently where if a BLM knows the fight perfectly they can still be the top (observing titan blm 99th and max). That ability to excel is directly connected to difficulty.

So what im saying is: if a class is highly difficult its average play should still be average, but its perfect play should most certainly beat out perfect play from a simpler class. And its below average play consequently should be below average compared to simpler classes.

[Wayfinder3]

So job difficulty needs to be taken into account now?

I have little issue with job adjustments. I have fairly significant concerns on blind potency requests. Blind "We need another 1000 dps" requests.

The can is open, Having actually played Astrologian after the recent adjustments, the Entire AST community on more than one occasion has posted their feelings about the card system and the ridiculous amount of OGCD weaving required to do it right. I have a post on a thread with 20 likes which simply points out that AST APM is too high, in your opener, you need to lightspeed, play, sleeve, redraw until you have 3 or at least 2 different seals then weave minor arcana as well as actually playing these cards. On top of all that, the job is still worse than WHM who doesn't have any of these concerns. im not even going to touch on the healing kit because the cards alone cause that job great stress. The Dev team has even gotten request to change it but they're adamant about the implentation. AST is way more complex than WHM or SCH and they aren't rewarded for it.

A god AST should out preform a God WHM in rpds because they have to work harder for it and, they have a weaker and less flexible healing kit and MP contrains but a God WHM should outperform a okay AST because the okay AST doesn't properly use the job. what actually happens is that a God AST has to try much harder than a God WHM to just be worse than it in ALL areas, it doesnt reward you with more rdps, or faster clears, or anything like that. So whats the point in dealing with an inherently clunky system when the simpler option is the superior one in all areas. Because it's different?

speaking for casters, i've gone on record saying, casting rez should be removed or BLM should get it too, I don't think diversity is an excuse for jobs like BLM to get special treatment, I think tanks are fine and all play different enough for them to be pleasing and the same holds true for healers. Healers could use more nuisance in their DPS kit but having Energy Drain, Cards, and Lilies are all distinct enough differences for me to put that the homogenization pitch fork even if i hate the current card system as opposed to the old one. DPS are all different in how the play and what they bring is really the point of contention. BLM not having a Rez makes it feel like it's apart of a different role because it doesn't balance fairly against RDM or SMN, it's either it's underpowered or it's overpowered with rez being left to compensate for it. This diversity hurts the caster role and this is a case where homogenization would help rather than hurt. different doesn't inherently mean better, somethings are similar because they're better off that way and tanks are better now being different flavors of the same thing, as opposed to being vastly different and the community screaming about the faults of the one who drew the short straw or certain tanks not being viable for fights because they lack the utilities needed to clear it.

[Kabooa]

The can is open, Have actually played Astrologian after the recent adjustments, the Entire AST community on more than one occasion has posted their feelings about the car system and the ridiculous amount of OGCD weaving required to do it right. I have a post on a thread with 20 likes which simply points out that AST APM is too high, in your opener, you need to lightspeed, play, sleeve, redraw until you have 3 or at least 2 different seals then weave minor arcana as well as actually playing these cards. On top of all that, the job is still worse than WHM who doesn't have any of these concerns. im not even going to touch on the healing kit because the cards alone cause that job great stress. The Dev team has even gotten request to change it but the're adamant about the implentation. AST is way more complex than WHM or SCH but and they aren't rewarded for it.

This is the example of the core problem mentioned up there. The core problem is that the system for using cards right now is unfriendly as heck. I think this is a great overview of Astrologian's current struggle, nothing else to add.

You and I don't disagree on much other than scale. The long and the short of it, I've said previously, is Potency buffs quiet the grumbling but don't solve the problem (Unless the problem is they simply don't hit hard enough.)

I definitely do think the gap can serve to close. I think the gap can close significantly by first addressing the core problems. Potency boosts would be easier, admittedly, but I'm not excluding them.

Also I feel I need to clarify.

When I say "Potency Boost" i speak purely from a personal DPS standpoint.

When i say "Core Problem", I speak in an overarching class design point, including its buffing capabilities. I.E. It is a core problem that Red Mage's existence -discourages it- from joining with other casters.

It is a Core Problem that Summoner's Pet is unreliable when put mildly.

It is a Core Problem that Ninjas can never win the Clipping Game with Ninjutsu.

I don't think those can really be argued, but I will say "That's Just My Opinion."

[SaberMaxwell]

When i say "Core Problem", I speak in an overarching class design point, including its buffing capabilities. I.E. It is a core problem that Red Mage's existence -discourages it- from joining with other casters.

It is a Core Problem that Summoner's Pet is unreliable when put mildly.

I'll add one more core problem for the entire caster role: Resurrection is a healer utility that for some reason the developers have forced onto a DPS role. SMN and RDM can't be close to BLM in damage because of it, because nearing a certain number people will choose the raise casters instead of the... Black Mage.

Red Mage needs to be friendlier with other casters. Summoner needs to have more fluid control of its pets--IMO, they should conceive for Summoner and Scholar the ability to weave pet oGCDs while casting, like they used to be able to--and the entire role needs raise to either be excised, or for Black Mage to receive it as well.