fate of emperor varis at the end

[Absimiliard]

Snip

At what point did the prior abuse the Garleans suffered get used as a means of justifying the current war? This has not, as far as I know, been an assertion anyone in this thread has tried to make. I am observing the reason why I believe the Garleans might, in their own minds, feel justified in using Black Rose when push finally comes to shove. Not entirely sure how people are getting that I'm actually justifying it. I nor anyone else has made the claim that the Garleans are being rational or that what they may do is anything resembling good idea. I am simply pointing out that desperate people, particularly those that have been indoctrinated into a certain line of thinking, are prone to doing incredibly stupid things.

The horrors inflicted upon their race for God knows how long before they formed their Empire, not to mention Emet-Selch's eventual meddling during and after that Empire's foundation, in all probability has a lot to do with their warped philosophy and the ease with which I believe they could become desperate enough to do a dumb. Abject desperation, as mentioned before, is not something that leads to rational decisions being made. Surrender suddenly stops looking like a viable solution when you're convinced that your entire race might be exterminated as a result of it. They're not desperate yet, but to think the Garlean propaganda machine would be above trying to convince the population of their impending annihilation if/when the war goes completely south for them is most likely in error.

That aside, what does the American incursion into Vietnam have to do with Garleans being nearly wiped out by the other spoken races in the past? I'm not seeing the correlation here. The Garleans didn't conduct any invasions or take to acts of provocation back then. They did, however, begin making extensive use of subterfuge and diplomacy after managing to assemble a few of their remaining tribes into a cohesive society of sorts. Happened long after they were driven into the harsh lands they now inhabit by their persecutors, though.

I also feel that your comparison of Eorzea and the Empire to American revolutionaries and the British Empire to be a bit disingenuous. Both the Garleans and Eorzeans have ample means to traverse long distances in an exceedingly short period of time. It would not be difficult at all for one side to renew hostilities with the other. Garleans have their technologically advanced airships and weaponry, the Eorzeans have their own airships and a whole host of people that are capable of using magic to varying degrees. The Americans and British, however, could not easily take shots at each other during the period of the revolutionary war. It took them considerably more time and preparation to move troops and assets over large distances - especially something like an ocean - than it would the Garleans or Eorzeans.

[Edax]

At what point did the prior abuse the Garleans suffered get used as a means of justifying the current war? This has not, as far as I know, been an assertion anyone in this thread has tried to make. I am observing the reason why I believe the Garleans might, in their own minds, feel justified in using Black Rose when push finally comes to shove. Not entirely sure how people are getting that I'm actually justifying it. I nor anyone else has made the claim that the Garleans are being rational or that what they may do is anything resembling good idea. I am simply pointing out that desperate people, particularly those that have been indoctrinated into a certain line of thinking, are prone to doing incredibly stupid things.

As I've stated, gas weapons are not a weapon of last resort. When push comes to shove, you don't use gas weapons. Again, insane German dictator who started a World War because he was a sore loser could have gassed London at any time and deliberately choose not to because he knew what the consequences would be. Gas weapons are not weapons of last resort so if the Garleans have twisted themselves to be more insane and evil then the Nazis, then the discussion is over.

That aside, what does the American incursion into Vietnam have to do with Garleans being nearly wiped out by the other spoken races in the past? I'm not seeing the correlation here. The Garleans didn't conduct any invasions or take to acts of provocation back then. They did, however, begin making extensive use of subterfuge and diplomacy after managing to assemble a few of their remaining tribes into a cohesive society of sorts. Happened long after they were driven into the harsh lands they now inhabit by their persecutors, though.

Suffering need not require invasion or genocide. It's a universe thing and a poor justification to cause others to suffer.

I also feel that your comparison of Eorzea and the Empire to American revolutionaries and the British Empire to be a bit disingenuous. Both the Garleans and Eorzeans have ample means to traverse long distances in an exceedingly short period of time. It would not be difficult at all for one side to renew hostilities with the other. Garleans have their technologically advanced airships and weaponry, the Eorzeans have their own airships and a whole host of people that are capable of using magic to varying degrees. The Americans and British, however, could not easily take shots at each other during the period of the revolutionary war. It took them considerably more time and preparation to move troops and assets over large distances - especially something like an ocean - than it would the Garleans or Eorzeans.

Boats don't sail faster in FFXIV universe and there aren't enough airships in Eorzea to either move an army or supply one, much less several armies needed to actually harm Garlemald.

[Absimiliard]

As I've stated, gas weapons are not a weapon of last resort. When push comes to shove, you don't use gas weapons. Again, insane German dictator who started a World War because he was a sore loser could have gassed London at any time and deliberately choose not to because he knew what the consequences would be. Gas weapons are not weapons of last resort so if the Garleans have twisted themselves to be more insane and evil then the Nazis, then the discussion is over.

The aforementioned German dictator yet retained some semblance of reasoning in some of his actions. What I am asserting is that Garlemald could easily wind up in a position that sees its people in full panic mode, their rationality is all but completely lost. As for gas weapons not being a last resort, I haven't disagreed with you. Another key difference here is the nature of the Black Rose itself. It doesn't just kill living things - it kills aether. It renders an area totally uninhabitable rather than merely devoid of life. Its actual effects on targeted areas are probably more comparable to those of an excessively nasty nuclear device than a chemical weapon. Would anyone with even a semblance of rational thought use that as a last resort? No. Again, I haven't disagreed on that point. The crux of the matter is the ability to make rational decisions, which I simply do not believe the indoctrinated people of Garlemald could if their worst case scenario were realized.

Suffering need not require invasion or genocide. It's a universe thing and a poor justification to cause others to suffer.

I don't disagree. Again, I am not in any way justifying the actions of the Garleans. I am pointing out various things that could very easily have lead to the warped mindsets of those typically shown on screen. We do not currently know what percentage of Garlean society is actually against the atrocities they've committed, unfortunately. Incidentally, the suffering the Garleans faced in the past is not something they have ever, at least to my knowledge, attempted to use as justification for their own actions.

Boats don't sail faster in FFXIV universe and there aren't enough airships in Eorzea to either move an army or supply one, much less several armies needed to actually harm Garlemald.

Eorzea actually has quite a few airships. Certainly nothing on the order of that Garlemald has, but it would be more than enough to make a bunch of already defeated Garleans wary I'd imagine. Whether or not they are sufficient to cause actual harm is, again, secondary to perception. The Garlean government loves its propaganda machine. There's no telling what horrible things they might (or in some cases already have) convince the populace of. And on the topic of boats; If I'm not mistaken, the Limsans actually do have means of making their boats travel much faster than they would on wind alone.

[LineageRazor]

When speaking of the Black Rose as a weapon of mass destruction, I think it's important to consider that the writers behind this game are Japanese. They have a unique perspective on the topic of WoMD's, being the only nation in the world to have nuclear weapons deployed against them in a war - and one result of this is that WoMDs are very rarely glorified in their media. There's no rationalizing that other means makes you just as dead as Black Rose does. It's very much an emotional feeling. To them, it's simply self-evident that such weapons are inherently evil in a way that doesn't apply to other forms of wartime-allowable murder.

Setting aside the Japanese perspective, however, chemical weapons are considered to be immoral elsewhere in the world, even when their method of death would technically be considered more merciful than guns, blades, or explosives. It's worth noting that the number of nations in the world that refuse to comply with the Chemical Weapon Convention can be counted on your fingers.

"Pseudo-Primal" is what we've kind of settled on in the Lore forums, due to the weirdness of Louisoix managing to mantle Phoenix into himself, but then getting tempered by Bahamut anyway, which is the only instance this ever happened. So special pleading had to be worked out, and we don't really know how applicable any of it is.

Actually, this is addressed in-game. Bahamut explicitly waited until Louisoix was dispersing Phoenix's energy, and THEN tempered him. Phoenix was unsummoned, or in the process of being unsummoned.

As an aside, the Warrior of Light has been shown to have the equivalent of PTSD. Garlean combatants have also been shown to have the equivalent of PTSD.

- Livia begins to lose it after realising that once again, everybody she cares for is being cut down right before her eyes.
- There's a soldier in La Noscea who hides away in a hut. I forgot his name, though.

Drest, an Imperial deserter, but not a Garlean himself (e.g., a conscript). His PTSD is largely caused by his former masters actively sending troops to try to kill him for his desertion, and also by the knowledge of what the Garleans likely did to his family when he ran away. This is one of the many atrocities the game uses to illustrate why folks should not sympathize with the Garleans.

The horrors inflicted upon their race for God knows how long before they formed their Empire,

What horrors would those be? The extent of our knowledge of what happened to the Garleans back then is limited. We know they were driven into an inhospitable area, and that violence was probably used. It likely wasn't at all pleasant, but there's no reason to believe it was any worse than any other international conflict. For all we know, there might have been very little bloodshed at all - their oppressors flashed some magic, said "Get out," and the Garleans up and ran, since they had no way to respond in kind. While they certainly had more than enough reason to be resentful, and eventually desire to retake their homeland, what we see in the Garleans now is a far cry from just that. They have a full-blown racial and cultural superiority complex going on, now.

[Absimiliard]

What horrors would those be? The extent of our knowledge of what happened to the Garleans back then is limited. We know they were driven into an inhospitable area, and that violence was probably used. It likely wasn't at all pleasant, but there's no reason to believe it was any worse than any other international conflict. For all we know, there might have been very little bloodshed at all - their oppressors flashed some magic, said "Get out," and the Garleans up and ran, since they had no way to respond in kind. While they certainly had more than enough reason to be resentful, and eventually desire to retake their homeland, what we see in the Garleans now is a far cry from just that. They have a full-blown racial and cultural superiority complex going on, now.

What little information we do have on them suggests that they were driven from their lands primarily over resources. Their inability to manipulate aether resulted in them being easy prey. Where this takes a darker turn is just how brutally the other races came at them. It wasn't just that they were driven from their lands - they were almost driven to the point of ceasing to be. It also appears that some Garleans were used a slave labor at some point, likely owing to their excessively strong bodies making them good workers and their inability to use aether all but eliminating any chance of them suddenly turning on their masters. I wouldn't be surprised if the Garlean propaganda machine doesn't go out of its way to make sure the people of Garlemald never forget where they came from. It is, after all, much easier to justify war and expansionism to the masses when they're under the delusion that outsiders, be they a race or a country, somehow owe them something.

Oh yes, Garleans today are definitely a far cry from what they were. They went from being oppressed and near-helpless to being a tyrannical military superpower. One can only speculate as to how they developed such a superiority complex, but I wouldn't be surprised if Emet-Selch's machinations somehow involved shaping modern Garlean society to function that way. He, as Emperor Solus, both praised Garlean pride and supported treating the conquered territories with a measure of kindness and respect to keep trouble down. Having these two conflicting mindsets running parallel to one another in a single society no doubt gave him numerous exploitable opportunities.

[ObsidianFire]

It wasn't just that they were driven from their lands - they were almost driven to the point of ceasing to be. It also appears that some Garleans were used a slave labor at some point, likely owing to their excessively strong bodies making them good workers and their inability to use aether all but eliminating any chance of them suddenly turning on their masters.

Where is any of this said in-game or in the lore books? All that is said is that the Garleans got driven out of Othard. It never goes into the how or why of it.

So yes, the Garleans did get driven to Northern Isabard. They then discovered ceruleum there fairly early and used it to make sure they could survive in what is essentially Siberia. They managed to unite their different cities (there were at least nine) through various means and then had a successful republic for 800 years. During that time they fended off anyone trying to take over their nation via subterfuge and politics, not open warfare. They couldn't compete with the magic of the nations around them, and they knew it, so they did compete with them in the spheres that they knew they could win in. There's a reason the Garleans have constantly been portrayed as knowing what is going on in all the different countries even when they aren't there anymore. They also apparently didn't try to (or at least succeed in) taking over the nations surrounding them for 800 years either.

It's only once an Ascian is at the head of their military that they have a tech revolution and start conquering the nations surrounding them. I find the timing of that very suspicious. 800 years is a very, very long time to nurse a national grudge about getting kicked out of somewhere to the point that a nation wants to go back to that place as soon as they have the technology to do so. If the Garlean Republic had been around for a lot shorter period of time, then I'd be more open to thinking that the Garleans had been nursing a national grudge.

[Absimiliard]

Where is any of this said in-game or in the lore books? All that is said is that the Garleans got driven out of Othard. It never goes into the how or why of it.

It comes in bits and pieces from all over. Sometimes in-game, sometimes in peripherals. Not much about their history is ever directly stated, I concede, but some things have been implied. Notice my careful use of phrasing; terms such as "suggests" or "I wouldn't be surprised". Garlean lore is sadly lacking outside of anything other than vague commentary, limited innuendo, and the host of atrocities they are continually depicted performing and/or condoning in-game. If you want exact sources for the in-game part, I can't help you there. You're welcome to make whatever assumptions you want based on a "lack of evidence". I just legitimately don't have the free time or care to pour over a bunch of text from such a long time ago.

So yes, the Garleans did get driven to Northern Isabard. They then discovered ceruleum there fairly early and used it to make sure they could survive in what is essentially Siberia. They managed to unite their different cities (there were at least nine) through various means and then had a successful republic for 800 years. During that time they fended off anyone trying to take over their nation via subterfuge and politics, not open warfare. They couldn't compete with the magic of the nations around them, and they knew it, so they did compete with them in the spheres that they knew they could win in. There's a reason the Garleans have constantly been portrayed as knowing what is going on in all the different countries even when they aren't there anymore. They also apparently didn't try to (or at least succeed in) taking over the nations surrounding them for 800 years either.

This information is correct. I was, however, under the impression that their discovery of ceruleum was a comparatively recent event. Comparatively meaning around the time their technological revolution first began - or, more precisely, that it was what directly enabled that technological revolution.

It's only once an Ascian is at the head of their military that they have a tech revolution and start conquering the nations surrounding them. I find the timing of that very suspicious. 800 years is a very, very long time to nurse a national grudge about getting kicked out of somewhere to the point that a nation wants to go back to that place as soon as they have the technology to do so. If the Garlean Republic had been around for a lot shorter period of time, then I'd be more open to thinking that the Garleans had been nursing a national grudge.

You can nurse a grudge for a very long time without ever acting on it. Just look at the friction between some of the Northern and Southern states in the US today. It's no 800 years but I'd say that a considerable length of time has none the less passed. Regardless, nobody seems to be looking to spark a civil war, but there's definitely still some bitterness there. In any case, I think a lot of it can be traced back to Emet-Selch gaslighting (or enabling, at the very least) them. All it takes to turn a lingering grudge into a full blown war is one man (or Ascian, in this case) with the gift of the silver tongue. Military accomplishments alone do not typically install someone as the leader of an entire nation - they must earn and/or manipulate their way there, generally through spoken word. The more distinguished their service, the greater the weight their career can add to their words and ideals.

[Edax]

Eorzea actually has quite a few airships. Certainly nothing on the order of that Garlemald has, but it would be more than enough to make a bunch of already defeated Garleans wary I'd imagine. Whether or not they are sufficient to cause actual harm is, again, secondary to perception. The Garlean government loves its propaganda machine. There's no telling what horrible things they might (or in some cases already have) convince the populace of. And on the topic of boats; If I'm not mistaken, the Limsans actually do have means of making their boats travel much faster than they would on wind alone.

Enough airships to support an army? Or are the Limsa boats able:

to traverse long distances in an exceedingly short period of time.

?

If not, the British vs American Revolutionaries comparison remains valid. There's no "stab in the back" possibility from nations so far away and on top of that, their propaganda machine is geared towards Garlean superiority, which makes it impossible for them to portray themselves as pathetic losers in need of saving. There's no reason for the Garlean populace to feel desperate when their homeland has remained completely untouched by the war for decades.

[Alleo]

- Slavery; Citizens of Ul'dah, including children, could be sold to repay debts. With able men kept imprisoned and forced into brutal fights before an audience in the Coliseum for their freedom. Meanwhile, less able prisoners were forced into a daily routine of back-breaking chores followed by training in which even minor mistakes were punished with beatings.
- Syndicate; Whilst Nanamo may be the 'face' of Ul'dah leadership with her role as the Sultan, much of the power lies with the rest of the Syndicate: the richest in society and the seats of which can be bought. Needless to say, being able to buy a position of power is far from ideal and is something even Garlemald (as far as we know) didn't go as far as to do. Not only would such an arrangement increase the already considerable rift between the wealthy and poor, but lead to an easier manipulation of the vulnerable.

Of course there might be more aspects (and I was ready to read what he had to say about the real bad stuff that they did in recent years that come close to Garlemald) but I just wrote of those that came to my mind that were on the forefront of the story. Which in case of Limsa is their old pirate lifes, in Uldah its mostly the problem with the rich people doing their selfish things and the situation of the refugees and Gridania with its stance of not helping or even shunning outsiders out of fear. That there are more problems that I can see, but we also have to remember that these problems probably happen in a lot of states, maybe even in Garlemald so I wanted to concentrate on those more specific to a state.

And honestly with all the help we are doing we should have found out about the bad stuff the states are doing already. We are putting our noses in a lot of different businesses. We also do know the leaders quite well and have seen some of their reactions. So I have just a hard time seeing them doing some atrocies especially after seeing how they were dealing with Fordola.

About the conscripted pirates: I have not heard about this ingame but the game is long and the translations can be different between languages. So if they do have conscripted pirates too then that might be a minus point for Limsa. Of course the question still is: Are they just criminals that get a chance of getting free with that or are they forced like Garlean soldiers with the death of their loved ones as "motivation"?

So of course the city states have their problems too but they are seemingly working on them.

[Ardox]

It comes in bits and pieces from all over. Sometimes in-game, sometimes in peripherals. Not much about their history is ever directly stated, I concede, but some things have been implied. Notice my careful use of phrasing; terms such as "suggests" or "I wouldn't be surprised". Garlean lore is sadly lacking outside of anything other than vague commentary, limited innuendo, and the host of atrocities they are continually depicted performing and/or condoning in-game. If you want exact sources for the in-game part, I can't help you there. You're welcome to make whatever assumptions you want based on a "lack of evidence". I just legitimately don't have the free time or care to pour over a bunch of text from such a long time ago.

Problem is you didn't initially presented anything you said as speculation at all: If you present something as implied and hinted at people will assume you have the care to pour over a bunch of text from a long time ago to back what you said. Heck, ObsidianFire did opened her lorebook to get you the right time line. Dismissing her the way you did just make you look like a unconditional Garlean apologist..

Also, the American civil war was only 165 years ago and there's still racial tensions: this is why it is way fresher in the country's memory. It would be like having a grudge about something that happened in year 1220; Emet-Selch made Garlemald into a super power during a lifetime worth of their history.